Behavior or?

[sascha]

@lorilu

He also gets PEMF treatments every two weeks.

I’m not saying don’t do this, but I will say that if skipping a few treatments would allow for blood/hair tests for muscle issues, I personally would be skipping treatments and getting some tests run. My other concern would be feet and guts, although I’m pretty sure you said you were sure it wasn’t guts in your first post.

Barring all that, give the guy a holiday from training by hacking, playing with obstacles, jumping tiny jumps, even schooling on different footing in a different area of the farm (if there are grass fields that are ever available, LOTS of horses actually prefer grass footing :o ) ride out there for a few days, longe, long rein/ground drive, work on something that you’d never work on for competition (Spanish walk for instance), even hand walking on a trail. Anything that will allow you to both develop a better connection to each other, a bigger trust, on neutral ground.

If the horse is safe and trust worthy, hop on one day and drop the reins to the buckle, ask for a walk and see where he takes you. That game is one of my personal favourites with my current horse. I would never have known she was so curious, adventurous and such an eagle eye about all the things in “her” farm if she hadn’t become sick enough to not be able to work, but not sick enough that she couldn’t carry me around on little walking adventures. If your horse automatically starts out for the arena, help out a little by changing the direction and then dropping the reins to the buckle again and again if necessary. Some can take a while to realize that this is a special time they get to take you for an adventure rather than being ridden.

Editing to add that once you get to the point of enjoying schooling/training, be sure to continue a couple of the things you and he found most fun at least a couple of times a week. I promise your training will not suffer, in fact, you may find it improves.

[candyappy]

@Scribbler

But you don’t need to school for 45 minutes. You can warm up and cool down on trails.

That was my suggestion too. Just get him out of the arena, not add more.

@SLW Burnout in my mind kind of goes with boredom.

[lorilu]

Lots of walk breaks. It’s def not 45 min of work.

[lorilu]

Thanks all. Yes. As I said trainer has agreed to put up some cavaletti and ground poles. There really isn’t hacking without hauling somewhere. and frankly I am not a trail rider.

I rode with the trainer because I managed to get on the s schedule. I had fallen off the schedule last year and the clinics are always full. Lots of what we did was walk. It was in a different place.

As I said I agree he needs something different.
Could not pass the opportunity to get back on the schedule.

[punchy]

[/quote]
If the horse is safe and trust worthy, hop on one day and drop the reins to the buckle, ask for a walk and see where he takes you. That game is one of my personal favourites with my current horse. I would never have known she was so curious, adventurous and such an eagle eye about all the things in “her” farm if she hadn’t become sick enough to not be able to work, but not sick enough that she couldn’t carry me around on little walking adventures. If your horse automatically starts out for the arena, help out a little by changing the direction and then dropping the reins to the buckle again and again if necessary. Some can take a while to realize that this is a special time they get to take you for an adventure rather than being ridden.
[/quote]

I do this when I first get on and my horse always goes to this one tree and sniffs a spot at the base of it. He’s been doing this all year, I have no idea what he finds so interesting about it. Then he usually saunters over to make sure that the manure pile is acceptable. Next stop is trying to squeeze through the trees to spy on the neighbors—some days we squeeze, some days not. Then we’re ready to go.

[fivestrideline]

To me, this is likely a ring/work sour horse. I’ve been told that plenty of physically capable horses flunk out of competitive dressage because their brains get fried and they just don’t have what it takes. We had a few flunkies out of great dressage programs come through the HJ barn - all fabulous, correct horses but boy did they not want to be micromanaged or drilled.

IIWM I’d definitely pursue poles and cavaletti and even full on jumping or trail obstacles if you can. I’ll admit I’m a bit shocked that you’re only just now adding pole work - I don’t do straight dressage but I’ve not had a dressage lesson in a long time that didn’t incorporate some. TBH the horse sounds a bit burnt out and bored - if he was mine I’d be riding in the pasture, jumping him, happy hacking, doing anything to mix up his riding life. Dressage at a new venue isn’t so different (though perhaps more intense) than Dressage at home.

Anything you can do to mix it up and avoid drilling him should help (even if it doesn’t feel like drilling to you).

[SLW]

@candyappy

@Scribbler

But you don’t need to school for 45 minutes. You can warm up and cool down on trails.

That was my suggestion too. Just get him out of the arena, not add more.

@SLW Burnout in my mind kind of goes with boredom.

It’s interesting how words mean different things to different people. Boredom in a horse, to me, would be a lazy horse, dull to aids, looking around.

Burnout to me is what her horse is doing- threatening to rear, he’s evading the rider and escalating negative behavior because just stopping and refusing to walk forward wasn’t a clear enough message.

Hope it works out for her and the horse.

[sascha]

@punchy

my horse always goes to this one tree and sniffs a spot at the base of it. He’s been doing this all year, I have no idea what he finds so interesting about it

Horses are like cats. They be weird. Mine gets at least one free-range ride per week during good weather. She loves checking out other pastures - rarely goes into her own - but her new thing from this summer is stopping to stare at the neighbours’ and at the BO’s house. “Ok, we need to move now. You’re being a creeper and it’s embarrassing.”

Years ago I learned that she loves being ridden in the dark so we’ll often go for a little toodle in the pitch black before hitting the lit sand ring. I usually have to be the one to decide we’ve gone far enough and ask her to turn around. She’d head straight for the narrow trails if I let her.

Bringing it back to the original topic - that sort of silliness brings her happiness and confidence and since hacking with a low stretched neck and relaxed back was instilled from the start, usually the next day’s schooling is better than the day before the hack day because she’s loose and her brain is clear of any tension (she can be a stress ball about new or difficult movements) she may have had in the session immediately prior to the free-range walk.

[Demerara_Stables]

This is so refreshing. Thank you for letting your girl be herself

[sascha]

Thank you! I learned a LOT when I stepped away from training other people’s horses and got my own horse for ME and decided that along with her dressage training I was going to do all the things I could never do with clients’ horses. Beach, obstacle park, trailering out to hack in the forest, non-dressage clinics (xtreme cowboy), off-property group trail rides, de-spooking clinics, and so on - we did a lot of things unusual for a traditional dressage horse.

In making her the pony my 12-year-old self never had I was able to really listen to find out what brought her joy and satisfaction and was able to incorporate some of those things into her everyday life. That has made her much happier about her dressage training and safer all round. Very occasionally I ask her to tote around someone who doesn’t know much and although she doesn’t love it, she accepts the trade off with grace and at the end of the lesson willingly gives the rider the glorious feeling of a few steps of piaffe. “I’m a good girl. Gimme the candy. Btw, we had better be doing something fun tomorrow!” LoL

[IPEsq]

100% of the time I have seen this behavior, it has been discomfort related. Ranging from chronic injury/pain issues to ulcers to saddle fit (despite what the saddle fitter said). I used to rehab horses and saw it a lot and was used to having to try to ride through it at least to some extent to flesh out the remaining issues and/or see if rehab was going to be successful or not. Owned one myself also, who turned out to have chronic pain although almost never lame.

Now my current horses would much rather hack out at the walk and socialize than go into the ring for “work” if I gave them that choice (which I often do when they steer me away from the ingate for another lap around the property on our warmup hack), but once in the ring they will go to work, and that right there is the big difference.

[Demerara_Stables]

That’s so great to hear. I, too, do everything with my jumper/dressage horse, and try to do everything with client horses as well, but so few people want to take the leap and cross train or even trail ride themselves. It makes me sad for the horses because all they do is go round and round in the ring.

Your mare is so lucky to have you, I bet she’s a very happy horse!!

[bingbingbing]

@lorilu

My guy seems to have an “off button” at about 45 minutes. This is not a new thing. It is slowly getting better but it’s been a year and I am over it. While he knows all the upper level stuff we are working at about 3rd right now.
He stops. Just stops and won’t go forward for a minute until he is convinced to take a step usually into an opening rein. Rinse and repeat. Sometimes almost threatens to jump up a bit. He does this with my trainer as well. She waits it out. (See reasoning below). Then either a bit more work or some walk and good transition to halt and dismount. The dismount is the reward for going forward.
Not hocks. Not saddle. Not bit. Not ulcers. No pain response along the back or girth area after unsaddling. Not teeth.
I/we are hesitant to really pop him one because 1. He is very anxious due to past strong riders. He is slowly learning to trust himself and don’t want to hazard that.
2. He is super athletic and really smart.
Those of you with kissing spine experience, is this something I should look at?
Thanks all.

Update. Went to a clinic with a trainer I have worked with in the past. The good part - he was much steadier int he contact, and he was using his back. Everyone agrees that he looked better than ever. Otherwise every evasion and some new ones appeared. Even walking at the start he began the stopping behavior, but I kept his feet moving and we worked through it. Then, when that didnt work for him, he started noticing EVERY little thing going on outside the arena… that was very new.
We ended on a good note.
He had today off.

This horse is screaming at you that he is not ok.
Horses are generally not d!cks for no reason.

[Scribbler]

@bingbingbing

@lorilu

My guy seems to have an “off button” at about 45 minutes. This is not a new thing. It is slowly getting better but it’s been a year and I am over it. While he knows all the upper level stuff we are working at about 3rd right now.
He stops. Just stops and won’t go forward for a minute until he is convinced to take a step usually into an opening rein. Rinse and repeat. Sometimes almost threatens to jump up a bit. He does this with my trainer as well. She waits it out. (See reasoning below). Then either a bit more work or some walk and good transition to halt and dismount. The dismount is the reward for going forward.
Not hocks. Not saddle. Not bit. Not ulcers. No pain response along the back or girth area after unsaddling. Not teeth.
I/we are hesitant to really pop him one because 1. He is very anxious due to past strong riders. He is slowly learning to trust himself and don’t want to hazard that.
2. He is super athletic and really smart.
Those of you with kissing spine experience, is this something I should look at?
Thanks all.

Update. Went to a clinic with a trainer I have worked with in the past. The good part - he was much steadier int he contact, and he was using his back. Everyone agrees that he looked better than ever. Otherwise every evasion and some new ones appeared. Even walking at the start he began the stopping behavior, but I kept his feet moving and we worked through it. Then, when that didnt work for him, he started noticing EVERY little thing going on outside the arena… that was very new.
We ended on a good note.
He had today off.

This horse is screaming at you that he is not ok.
Horses are generally not d!cks for no reason.

I have absolutely had lookiness be a pain reaction, in my case went away when I put hoof boots on.

[RhythmNCruise]

Yep. And it makes perfect sense. As prey animals, if horses feel their ability to flee from danger is at all compromised, they have to be that much more vigilant about their surroundings and determining what could be a possible threat.

Likewise, my horse’s pain in his back (and I later discovered his gut) was exacerbated whenever he’d tense up or spook at something. So, he was already being extra-vigilant due to the underlying discomfort, then he’d react to something in his environment that he thought might pose a threat, and that reaction would actually increase his pain, which made him react more, which made the pain worse. His back would go into spasms and his ulcers were hurting all at the same time. So, to him, he absolutely was being hurt by the thing that was causing him to spook.

It’s amazing how simple it is when we accept that reactivity in horses is increased when they’re in pain. It’s in their DNA. Fix the pain and the reactivity almost always goes away. I mean, they’re still horses, and horses are going to do what horses do, but it’s a lot less dramatic when they feel confident and comfortable in their own bodies.

[walktrot]

You know how they figure out it is dinnertime before they hear the rustling of the grain in the buckets? If you feed them at the same time every day they figure it out. Heaven forbid if you are late. Same idea if you ride them for 45 minutes everyday. “Your time is up. I’m done now.” Variety is the spice of life.

[RJC]

I feel like there’s so much potential for these reactions to be a mix of things or just a response to anything they don’t appreciate, whether it’s pain, boredom, burnout, or taking advantage of a rider. My guy’s “go to” response to indicate dissatisfaction with a situation is to stop dead and maybe wave a hind leg around a bit.

He used this to complain when his back hurt when we started working more collection (few years ago), because I wasn’t riding his hind end under him effectively and he’s naturally out behind. Working with a physical therapist and the equicore system fixed us.

He has done it as a response to me tipping my pelvis forward while preparing for a walk- canter transition. Reset, try again, off we go with no fuss. I take that as him training me. It probably doesn’t feel great for him to lift into canter if my seat bones are pointing backwards.

He has done it to express burnout with arena work (mental or muscle fatigue) and going for a hack instead or having a super stretchy lateral work day seems to satisfy him.

He is more likely to complain in general when he’s almost due for his next round of Adequan. I assume his left hock bothers him (slightly arthritic on xrays) a little even though he doesn’t appear lame or flex above a 2.

He has never stopped on a “fun” day of poles, small jumps, hacking, or showing. He’s flexed twice a year by the vet and regularly checked over by his PT for restrictions and soreness. He’s also hard to get and keep fit, so I’m constantly trying to figure out where his current “line” is and sometimes I think I overwork him and he gets either a bit sore or just “bleh- I don’t wanna” and I try to respect where he is that day.

He isn’t allowed to get out of things, but I always try to listen. As in, if he seems balky about going into the outdoor after we’ve had multiple schooling rides in a row, we still have to go into the outdoor, but then we just walk a few circles and go for a field ride.

YMMV, but I think about this a lot and have decided that the stopping reaction (for my guy) is more of a general “I don’t wanna for ‘reasons’” vs one specific reason, and it’s up to me to determine how to proceed based on context clues.

[lorilu]

So I have found the answer.
It’s in my pelvis.
He needs my pelvis to be more of a driving seat than Bravo needed… but not too much. Older horse needed more of a “three point” balance, 50/seatbones-50 pubic bone. new guy is more 60 seatbones/40 pubic bone. If I “slip” into even 50-50, he stops, etc.
I guess he is pretty darned picky. Guess its true he will make me a better rider once I figure it all out.

[SLW]

Wow, I sure didn’t see that coming but good news!

[SuzieQNutter]

For the answer for how long to ride in the arena. It depends on the level of dressage the horse is at.

45 minutes is for a Grand Prix Horse.

15 -20 m for a horse just starting out. Daily is best. Yes walking counts in that 15 - 20 minutes. It is the mental as well as the physical that you are dealing with.

You will be surprised at how fit and muscled that horse will be in a month or two. As you go up the levels the ride takes longer as there is more for both of you to do.