Is it? Is taking yoga unfair to you? Pilates? Was your body built for all those things, or do you have to strengthen and condition it to do those things?
Some people are born flexible. Is enhancing your own flexibility through yoga and gymnastics unfair to your body?
I still don’t get it.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3356196]
It is if you’re using it to tell someone else that their horse has no talent for dressage. I mean, really. You can say what you believe his conformational challenges are, but judging talent?[/QUOTE]
Don’t quite get what you are saying here. What I’ve tried to say is that conformation is very indicative of talent.
Many horses are “better” than their conformation would suggest that they would be. But (AGAIN IMO) they will still find the work harder and (AGAIN IMO) that will “tell” over time.
We don’t tell people their horses are “duds”. We encourage people to enjoy the horse they have. But we also don’t just take their $$ and tell them what we think they want to hear. If their goal is the UPPER LEVELS and their horse isn’t going to be capable, we do tell them.
And what level are you showing your horse at? Didn’t I see a picture of him in a double bridle?
Ummm yes you can, I have a filly sitting in my back yard of a clients that did and has. The stallion of the filly was not approved with any registry and the mare was one of my Trak mares that I NEVER took to an AWS inspection. The filly has full papers.
So what stops that person from breeding her down the road and doing that same route of sending paperwork in, getting the scores, etc. Nothing.
[QUOTE=STF;3356242]
Its not unfair to the point of what your thinking. What were saying is that the majority of drafts are built to PULL, not sit and elevate which is needed for 2nd level and above = collecetive gaits. They are just not built for collective gaits. Can some do it? Yes… but what some would consider nice and supple, some others may not. [/QUOTE]
As others have pointed out, drafts are built to PUSH into the collar… but it doesn’t matter. People believe what they want.
My favorite argument is this “sit” inability that they have. Last time I checked, fit, eventing TBs at Rolex couldn’t “sit” either, yet we don’t bemoan how unfair it is to take a racing fit TB and collect them (Courageous Comet excluded, of course). I mean, TBs are bred to run on their forehand and be very long.
I see lots of pictures of piaffe where the horse is not sitting, both from iberians and warmbloods. It’s about training and working within the comfort of the particular horse. But to say that “drafts can’t sit” or it’s “unfair to ask” is a bit of a broad brush.
Having said that, I ride a purebred Percheron who’s back is as long as the Mississippi. We are solidly in training level, but I use lateral movements to help him learn balance and bend. He will not spontaneously launch into the most balanced and floaty perfect trot like most warmbloods will. He NEEDS the lateral work to teach him balance.
It’s hard. It’s a lot of work, it doesn’t come easy to either of us. But it makes him a better riding horse. And I get digital xrays every year and he is NOT hurting himself to learn to move in balance. Will we ever get above 2nd? I doubt it, more so because I am not that good of a rider. But I can say with conviction, he moves in better balance than a big Hanovarian at my barn who can’t seem to get off his forehand and has already has 4 hock operations at 7 years old. It’s about training, training, training.
Most people don’t bother, because they are not competitive. But when you start with this:
Heavy on forehand
People run away screaming.
But when you get to this a year later, you CAN help a horse move in balance. Which is good for him and his longevity.
Walk
Trot
So I agree that drafts are not competitive under FEI standards. They can’t get the huge extended trots and flashiness. But I also believe they can be trained to move in balance and with great comfort to the rider, which perhaps is a more classical approach. Some of the movements I use to teach balance are shoulder-in, haunches-in, flying changes, etc. But I can’t put them all together and perform a test which will beat a warmblood at those levels. But he can do the movements, just with own style. :lol:
Of course conformation is part of ability. It’s just not ALL of ability. There are those for whom it comes easy physically, and those whose heart and motivation make up for their limitations. I don’t know about Belgians, but Percherons have heart. And attitude 
If you want more information on my horse, what he’s doing, etc., please PM me if you’re truly curious. I’m always happy to get honest opinions from people with open minds.
Not sure how that worked, as it’s not within their requirements. I believe they accept approvals from european WB registries.
eta: These are the requirements for registry:
[LIST=1]
And where in there does it say inspection is required for papers?
It doesn’t. It says inspection OR performance is required for papers. That’s what I’ve been saying 
I know that is why i said all you have to do is fill out the paperwork, send in the DNA test kit and then turn in your scores and waalaaa… you have a “papered horse” that has never been seen my anyone. It does not even have to be out of approved parents.
Its a registry, yes, I understand. A way to help people track horses.
Yep, but the “registry” is admittedly just a registry. They also have an “approval” process for breeding, and that’s a different story.
At least you have to DO something to get a horse registered. Most registries in the US only require that both parents be registered.
eta: Actually, STF, you said:
The AWS is the most relaxed registry of them all and do not even REQUIRE you to take a horse to inspection to get papers!!! You just have to send in paperwork filled out with a DNA test kit.
That was my argument. AWS requires either performance or inspection. The only horses who can be registered without are, I believe, the offspring of certain highly rated approved horses.
The above quote might have been a typo, but it made it sound like any horse can be registered with no inspection OR performance requirement.
And equibrit disagrees, but can you imagine if someone put a performance requirement on AQHA? Half the horses bred would be unregisterable, even if it was something as easy as 62%!
I think the performance registry is mostly so that american bred sporthorses can be eligible for breed awards, so as you said more just a recordkeeping than some sort of evidence of merit. If I ever do manage to show my horse, I will probably register him with AWS.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3356374]
Of course conformation is part of ability. It’s just not ALL of ability. There are those for whom it comes easy physically, and those whose heart and motivation make up for their limitations. I don’t know about Belgians, but Percherons have heart. And attitude
If you want more information on my horse, what he’s doing, etc., please PM me if you’re truly curious. I’m always happy to get honest opinions from people with open minds.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I thought maybe I wasn’t the only one interested. When I see a horse in a double, I think ah ha, third level or more, so I thought I’d ask.
You have demonstrated here that you are completely ignorant of “most registries”. It wouldn’t be a bad idea if you took the trouble to find out about “most registries” before treating us to your ramblings.
Nope, it’s a pelham He’s not even close to 3rd, after only 6 months of training. I’m told to be amazed that he’s schooling as high as he is (my trainer did a lovely counter canter serpentine on him the other day, my jaw dropped to the ground!). He is only 7 as well.
As I said, I have a terrible shortage of decent pictures of him (and an excess of crappy ones). My husband used to be a photographer, you’d think I could get some good ones! Most of the video I have is of my trainer riding and I don’t feel right posting it.
Here is a photo of him trotting on his forehand, I wish I had a pic of how he looked after we did some t/c/t transitions and shortened the side reins and he picked himself up a bit 
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x182/estarianne/websitepics015.jpg
And you know about “most registries in the US?”
[edit]
eta: google is your friend. Do a search of “US horse registries” and show me how many of those on the first 3 pages have any requirement other than registered parents. I count 3, unless you want to include those that don’t even care who the parents are as long as they are the right color, in which case it’s 6.
Your ignorance is no skin off my nose, but you might want to change your attitude, unless of course you enjoy making a fool of yourself on a public bulletin board.
If having a bad attitude makes one a fool…
Did you try that google search?
Google is not the arbiter of my opinions.
So you did try it. See what I mean?
Re training rather than competing. I trained a Percheron and a Belgian for different people at various times, to do dressage. I felt very sorry for the horses, actually. They tried their hearts out, and it was very difficult for them. I refused to train the Percheron after he became lame(later i found out a dressage trainer had worked him 2 years before, and he’d gone lame then too). There is a hitchier, lighter, more compact type that would have a less difficult time, but even at that, it’s just a big heavy hard-on-himself type horse and you’re asking them to move around like a ballerina. It was very, very hard to get the horse through and on the bit. Even the best draft neck makes that hard.
If I had to, i’d try to get a half or 3/4 thb draft cross instead. at least it would be fairer to the animal.
The horses had sweat pouring off them if they were asked to work quicker, in the heat they really suffered, but even just getting them through and self carrying. It was really sad. the percheron was a stallion and SO nice. he had been handled rough and if you said go, he WENT, as hard as he could. he was such a decent chap. he tried so hard.
i talked to a gal that trained a pure shire to 2nd level. she said he HAMMERED her back, his gaits were just hard. he was such a good guy. i adored that horse, i felt sorry for the trianer AND the horse. i’ve also talked to people whoc omplained about them being insensitive and were very hard to get them to react to the bit, the leg.
i won’t do it any more. The horses are so nice just as they are, why try to make them be something else? The belgian became a lovely hill topper for an old lady that adored him, all he had to do was jog a little and walk, she was as safe as if she was with the lord.
Registries vary alot. Most ‘breed’ registries only require registered parents, performance-geared registries require performance documentation such as licensing examinations that evaluate gaits, temperament and conformation, performance scores, etc.
There is no comparing the two types of registries. They are night and day.
In The USA there ARE ‘performance registries’ that are a hell of a lot easier to meet criteria for than many european registries. Some of them are an outright joke.
“conformation just isn’t ALL of ability”
damned close, LOL.
Conformation has a huge amount to do with how sound a horse stays for work, and how far he can go in dressage, how good he is at it, and how hard he is on himself and his rider.
It takes many years to get a dressage horse trained and to move him up the levels. He usually needs to stay sound for 5 years of riding just to get thru the training process (a novice needs to allow twice as much time).
whoever is riding your grey horse, ambrey, needs to even up their stirrups. they’ve got alot more rider on the left side of the horse than the right.
There are indeed times when ‘talent and desire make up for shortcomings in conformation’.
In Hollywood, at the movies.
Like a 4’11’’ 53 year old Asthmatic multi year desk jockey being a top rated player for the NBA and injury free.
It does not happen.
Fortunately, most people eventually figure out if they are trying to make a horse be something the good Lord didn’t intend him to be. Usually, that’s about when the horse goes lame.
‘Talent’ doesn’t make up for crooked legs, steeply, sloped, inflexible hind quarters, straight shoulders, heavy, thick necks, sickle hocks, straight hocks, or any of the many other conformation issues that make it difficult for a horse to be a pain free ‘athlete’.
Why would I? I have absolutely no reason to “see” what you mean. Warped logic and ignorance are not something I really want to “see”.
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