And every one has exceptions. A 14.2 mutt pony kicking butt in eventing, percherons kicking butt in dressage… it happens
It all depends on what is important to you. If success is the most important thing, don’t get an off breed. If you fall in love with a breed but hope to do dressage, look until you find one that is appropriate.
I found this blog when I was looking for info on belgians and dressage. It’s cool
I don’t give a crap about the breeds, and I don’t think anyone is picking on me because I think some draft horses can do dressage.
I really… really don’t get emotionally overwrought if someone doesn’t like my horses. And since I’m not referring to my horses, that makes me even more unconcerned.
However, I do get great big huge belly laughs when I read posts like many on this thread - because there is indeed breed prejudice; and lots of folks getting their knickers in a twist because dressssaaahhhhge is sooooo special that basically only the currently fashionable horse can do it.
So again - I call BS on that. The highest level of dressage is performed by horses that the stressage world claims is unsuitable for dressage. Obviously there are horses that didn’t get your memo. Stop being good at things that DQ’s think you shouldn’t be doing! Ewww! Appendix jumpers! Ewww!:rolleyes:
Have you ever BEEN to a QH race? QH that look like TBs have been around forever. They are a part of the breed.
Breed standards change! The breed standards for WBs have not always focused on sporthorses… at some point, someone changed them because that was what they were in demand for.
Breed standards are not the bible. There is no hell for someone who breeds a belgian who is built for dressage.
I hate to say it, but these discussions always do sound like… not breed bias, but breeder bias to me. Sort of the “well maybe they can do the job, but we are still the ones doing it right!” attitude.
There is much more to what people want in a horse than “it was bred for the job.” We all balance what we want and what we need and hope it’s out there. For some people, it’s just not a warmblood, even though dressage is the goal. Somewhere out there, someone will fall in love with Belgians and decide to breed one for dressage- good for them
Honestly I never understand why people get so upset about the idea off off-breeds, especially drafts, doing dressage.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3348548]
Have you ever BEEN to a QH race? QH that look like TBs have been around forever. They are a part of the breed.[/QUOTE]
No, I haven’t. So there I am incorrect in my thoughts that racing quarter horses are built more like the foundation quarter horses.
Again, you need to clarify - I never stated that drafts cannot do dressage. Are you saying that drafts should be able to get to Grand Prix on a large or even medium scale?
As a note - I don’t think warmbloods are the best things since sliced bread, either. I think they are way overpriced just because of their breed name and come on, what makes an Oldenburg and Oldenburg? The fact that it was born in a certain area. Dutch Warmblood? Again, location. I think that while there is a breed standard to warmbloods, warmbloods across registries are not really different and not more special than a thoroughbred/draft cross. Just my opinion. Some warmbloods do have more closed registries, such as Trakehners - yes, they allow some thoroughbred and arabian crosses, but not as pure trakehners and a dutch warmblood bred foal cannot be registered with the Trakehners because it was inspected in a certain area.
Yep, racing quarters have looked like chunky TBs for a long, long time. Some of the greatest stallions in the QH breed were TBs. Foundation quarter horses are kind of a newer fad, it used to be “racing type,” “stock type,” and a lot in the middle.
Again, you need to clarify - I never stated that drafts cannot do dressage. Are you saying that drafts should be able to get to Grand Prix on a large or even medium scale?
Nah, just like Jswan, I don’t get why people’s panties get tied in a knot over the whole idea. If you’re doing dressage with a draft or draftx, you’ll hear constant comments like “well, WHY would you use a tool that wasn’t built for the job?” or “it’s just not FAIR to them to make them do a job they weren’t bred for!” Then you look at your horse going out there and doing it and loving it, and wonder where they get those ideas.
Ambrey - I get what you are saying. When I think of ‘foundation’, I am probably thinking about what you are calling ‘stock’. It is a point that thoroughbred blood is in racing quarter horses…of course the bloodlines for both, especially out west, were somewhat blurry before the middle of the 1900’s - so there is likely quarter horse blood in thoroughbreds, as seen in palomino thoroughbreds (just conjecture based on an educated guess…)
Actually, the difference is that TBs are STILL being bred back into QH consistently. JC TB and AQHA crosses can be registered appendix, and their offspring registered AQHA based on performance standards.
As an owner of Belgians (I use them sporadically for farm work), I can say that flexing at the poll is not a problem. These horses seem to do it very easily. They are very laterally balanced, and the best-trained of the farm horses I have seen can do a turn on the forehand or turn on the haunches to die for. The lighter-bodied of my two mares does spontaneous, active, correct flying changes when cavorting in the field.
That said, you have to look at each horse as an individual. There are two types of Belgians (and of most of the working breeds). The ‘show’ type with very high action, but not coupled to correct forwardness, and the ‘working’ type – heavier, shorter, generally calmer. I would say that the latter has purer gaits.
Also, contrary to what most people would think, draft horses PUSH into the collar, rather than PULLING the load. All that heavy muscle on the shoulders and front end aids in that. A working draft horse’s shoulders generally do not have as much slope to them as the show type. The extreme slope seen in the show type renders them almost useless for heavy work, as the mechanics with the collar are all wrong.
So, if you can get something between the show type and the working type, you might end up with reasonable conformation to be able to handle dressage which is more advanced than your basic 3 gaits. It all depends on the horse. Belgian draft horses would not be my first choice to look at, if I were planning to move up through the levels to FEI, just as I would not look first at an Arabian to do heavy plowing.
Just two weeks ago I got a comment from an S judge, Donna Richardson, from California. She said that my “Amenable big fellow was not bred to be ridden and will have trouble advancing up the levels.” Hmmm, the other judges I rode infront of that weekend didn’t say anything like that.
We were riding first level and this particular judge was in the indoor. A big scary indoor with a big ramp and loud a/c unit to pass to get in. Many horses were ANYTHING but relaxed in that indoor.
That being said to the OP who asked if Belgian drafts could do the training involved in dressage I’d have to say that all belgians could work at the lower levels and some could certainly work on upper levels. My guy is a percheron and he tracks up very well, but he doesn’t get a lot of extention from his shoulder so trot lengthenings or extentions are difficult. They’re easier after a legyield or if ridden SLIGHTLY shoulder fore. Collection work is easier. Drafts like baroque breeds tend to have animated, collected gaits. And within in the breed (type) you have the plods and the powerhouses. Sitting to the trot of a forward moving draft is NOT easy. I’ve ridden warmbloods and lots of andalusians and I have to say it’s harder for me to sit my percheron’s medium trot than it is for me to sit the other breeds.
We can do all of the standard lateral work at the trot, travers, renvers, legyield, halfpass, etc. We can do turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches. We can do flying changes and 4 tempis. Lateral work at the canter is difficult, but I think that’s more of a fitness issue than anything else. Drafts as a stereotype are quite smart and my guy is still trying to the pull the “oh, you want me to go faster” instead of “move laterally”.
Part of a problem is a weak left hind that we believe was caused when he was a logging horse. But, as someone else mentioned he’s also an all-around. He can jump 3’ courses, he can go cross country, we can trail ride with mares (he’s a stallion), and he is quite simply my favorite horse in the world. He’s honest (you get away with NOTHING), he’s intelligent, and he’s kind. Would I trade him for a more naturally talented dressage mount? NO. I’ve learned alot more riding him than I did riding schoolmasters and there’s so much we can do while HAVING fun too!
I have a 3/4 tb 1/4 belgian gelding…I adore him. Does he have what it takes to go GP? Probably not, but I’m sure he’ll try his heart out for me! for the average amateur rider these are excellent horses…easy to ride and handle and affordable. I have also found that they do not have the soundness issues that some warmbloods have, Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, this is just been my observation after having both partbreds and warmbloods over the years.:yes:
Actually these “atypical” horses could be very beneficial in breeding American sporthorses. That’s what Europeans do, although no one on the SHB forum wants to admit it. :winkgrin:
As far the Belgian Drafts being advertised for dressage, the breeders probably saw that Friesians are being sold for dressage (although Friesians are a breed that have been used both for driving and riding) and thought they’d jump on that bandwagon.
[QUOTE=Ambrey;3348885]
How were your scores? Doesn’t seem like a judgement she should be making :([/QUOTE]
From that judge the scores ranged from 4 to 8. Some of her comments are completely incorrect and I have video proof. After a leg yield at the trot there is a transisiton to canter. We picked up the wrong lead. I got a 4. Generous, and I’m okay with that. I brought him back down before C and asked again. Wrong lead again. I asked for a flying change and got it prior to the 15m circle at C. Score and comment for circle? Wrong lead and a 4. Um…not quite. Similar effect with leg yield, comment on trailing haunches. Video shows no trailing haunches at all leg yield left and very slight trailing leg yeild right.
Comparativly I thought this was a better test than other ridden that weekend. This was my lowest score I’ve EVER gotten. It’s funny also because the TD later told me it was such a nice test and other people there who happened to be at the table when I got my test were quite shocked by the scores and comments.
Now, I have no problem with scores and comments that are valid. I got lots of “needs more energy” comments on another test and I agreed completely. I know my scores would have been higher, but there just wasn’t any more energy there as the ride schedule and heat/humidity just weren’t working for us that day.
**I hope this doesn’t count as an off topic post, sorry if it is!!
It does sound like she went into it believing he was not going to do well, and then scored him accordingly. That’s what breed bias is all about, right? Just those subtle differences in judging that can make or break an off-breed horse.
By making that comment on the test, she gave herself away.
look up usdf all breeds and you will find percherons at GP. The USDF connection mag last fall had a feature article on a Percheron GP horse. The last series of the regional qualifiers for AA’s had not one but 2 riders with draft crosses and one was at PSG! Granted these were shire crosses and not full drafts but the perch is a full draft. I myself prefer the Tb/Perch and not only do they do well in dressage but there are a few that have gone on to international jumping fame as well, the most recent was with a Canadian rider.
Poor comments from that "s’ judge…perhaps she is a reseller of european imports? I find most breed snob comments to come from people who either paid too much for their “import” or from importers themselves.
It is why 16HH jumping quarter horses irritate me - ones that look like thoroughbreds. That is not the breed standard, dag nabbit! Get a thoroughbred if that’s what you want! [/QUOTE]
Versatility is not a purely physical trait. Quarter horses are famous for their trainability and easygoing personalities. Perhaps the breeders of such horses are in love with both the QH mind AND jumping… What’s wrong with breeding selectively in order to get the temperament you desire along with the conformation that is most suitable for your favorite discipline?
Because APHA has always been a breed primarily based on bloodlines. It is NOT just a color breed and never has been. APHA wouldn’t exist if AQHA hadn’t decided once upon a time that excessive white wasn’t allowed, even though it has always been a naturally occurring phenomenon within the QH breeding stock. (Just like how solid foals will always be a natural occurrence in APHA breeding stock.)
AQHA has since learned the error of its ways and has gotten rid of the excessive white rule… Why would APHA want to now go down that same type of path?
Ok, this is going EXACTLY as I imagined it would be. OP asks if said breed could be COMPETATIVE PAST SECOND LEVEL. Why or why not. This is a general question about the BREED IN GENERAL. I answer the question speaking about THE BREED IN GENERAL. People with draft horses freak out, insist on bringing up the very odd off breed that made it to FEI (but still, has any Belgian draft been seriously SUCCESSFUL in FEI dressage?..nope!) and insist because one or two members of that breed were used for dressage by someone (which again, doesn’t make them suited or successful…anyone can ride a pattern and make an attempt) that this PROVES that belgians can be competative dressage mounts and anyone who disagrees is a snobby, wb obsessed DQ.
Anyone here who is a successful FEI dressage trainer AND doesnt own a draft wanna comment and tell us how suitable this breed is?
Jeez people. Maybe my mom should stop doing CDE’s with her belgian because spruce meadows is just around the corner and the CN international offers a 1 million dollar prize…if they can do FEI level dressage, hey…why not 5 foot fences?
Because so many people want to make it black and white, that’s why. Either all horses of a breed can, or you’re wasting your time by trying- are those the only options you’re giving yourself?
EVERYONE has stated that it takes a specific type, that one must choose carefully, etc. Yet, someone still needs to come in and argue that it’s senseless. Then anyone who argues has to PROVE that their horse is actually suitable, because of course everyone knows a draft cross/belgian/etc isn’t and we’re all fooling ourselves.
And since when does “above second level” mean “grand prix?” We’ve shared horses that have gone to grand prix- who knows how many are out there at 4th?
It’s not black and white. It’s not either “lower level” or “gp.” It’s not either “star material” or “completely unsuitable.” It’s not either “all of them can” or “none of them can.” There are other choices.
There are tons of off breeds at 3rd/4th out there, and quite a few even at PSG.
Wrong. OP asked if a belgian draft can DO upper level dressage.
Maybe you need to get off the WB wagon and not think that EVERY thread about drafts in dressage is also a WB bashing thread. In fact I’m quite happy to see that this is one drafts in dressage thread that has NOT gotten snarky about WBs in dressage.
look up usdf all breeds and you will find percherons at GP. The USDF connection mag last fall had a feature article on a Percheron GP horse. The last series of the regional qualifiers for AA’s had not one but 2 riders with draft crosses and one was at PSG! Granted these were shire crosses and not full drafts but the perch is a full draft. I myself prefer the Tb/Perch and not only do they do well in dressage but there are a few that have gone on to international jumping fame as well, the most recent was with a Canadian rider.
Poor comments from that "s’ judge…perhaps she is a reseller of european imports? I find most breed snob comments to come from people who either paid too much for their “import” or from importers themselves.
Thanks for posting this I am familiar with Cottonwood Flame and the MANY, MANY percheron crosses this farm has bred that are VERY competitive through the FEI levels at big shows in Florida and beyond. Also, if someone is looking for a super young percheron stallion suitable for dressage they have one for sale.
