Belgian Drafts for Dressage

[STF]

My problem is NOT people saying a certain horse is not the most likely candidate for a certain job. My problem is people saying that for the most part if your intention is to attempt to teach a horse how to do a certain job you can only succeed if you buy “this” horse and that your wasting your time, money, and energy if you even think of trying it with “that” horse.

The breed registires HAVE tried to cross draft blood into the books in the past and it was proven not to be a postive trait towards the overall breed standard. Each registry has a breed standard (well MOST registires) to keep up and the conformation, gaits and such were not meeting the standards of what they wanted. It WAS tried. This is nothing other than a fact of why they dont let draft breed incross into the more elite registires.
Its NOT that they were breed bias, but they see in the offspring results that it was not helping to keep improving the breed.
The whole goal is to try to to breed a horse that can go all the way (as most will not, we know - being rider/trainer or horses issues) but why breed something that you know will have a very slim chance to non to get the job done or break down due to conformation faults, etc.
Nothing like spending many yrs bringing a horse along to, say… 4th level only to have it not sound because we asked it to do something it could not do and stressing the body/joints to the point of problems.

[FEIwannabe]

My draft cross mare LOVES doing lateral work. I think she finds it interesting. She’s really good at it.

[Phyxius]

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your post at all. I wasn’t talking about crosses and I think you calling certain regisitries “elite” is a bit um…rude? Perhaps you didn’t mean it the way it sounded, I could be wrong, but it read as if non-european type registries are less than elite to you. I can I could be misinferring what you typed, but I’m sure AQHA breeders, and JC members, closed stud books like friesians stamboek (since 1943) and the percheron studbook may feel differently. Now, like I said I could be entirely wrong and you’re only referring to the attempts to mix draft blood with warmblood lines or TB lines to produce an “american” warmblood.

I agree that breeding for the BEST possible horse is the goal. I disagree that that always means breeding with Grand Prix as the goal. Most riders will NOT get to that level and most riders can not handle a horse bred and trained to GET to that level. So, why not breed a horse for dressage that CAN be ridden and brought along by the median american rider? A bad rider on a great horse is not impressive. A good rider on a good horse IS. A great rider on a great horse is magnificent! I’m not disagreeing that a warmblood from an established bloodline has a better chance of being an upper level horse than a draft, I’m just saying that if you have a sound, healthy, willing, intelligent horse there is not reason it can’t do dressage.

Really, really! I don’t know WHY people try to make dressage so elite. Jeez, get off the high horse and ENJOY what you’re doing. I enjoy riding my horse, he enjoys being ridden, people enjoy watching him I’m not sure why it’s such a bad thing?!

Also, I’d like someone to please, please, please give me examples of all of these broken down drafts, QHs, etc that have attempted to do dressage and are now ruined. I mean dressage has STRENGTHENED every horse I’ve worked with and it’s made NONE of them lame. Maybe someone isn’t “doing it” right?

[boosma47]

I like to think that Boo, Bel x, is baroque in type. She doesn’t have anywhere near the ideal competitive movement, and I’d never consider her for anything but the lowest levels. That said, she is really light in the hand, flexible, responsive, is fantastic at lateral work. But, I might get to teach her piaffe/passage with conditioning and strengthening. She is a joy to ride, highly sensitive to my seat, jumps, does neat dressage schooling figures, loves playing with cows and is sure-footed and handy on the trail.

She has weak stifles, too light cannons, fabulous feet, beautiful head and tons of personality.

Dressage horse - uh, no. Versatile, fun, athletic, trustworthy - oh my, yes!

[draftdriver]

Canadiens and Fresians

[QUOTE=Vesper Sparrow;3353181]
I also haven’t heard of Canadian Chevals containing a lot of Friesian blood. Maybe Leena could enlighten us.[/QUOTE]

Correct, Canadiens do not have a lot of Fresian blood, if any. At one time there was an influx of Percheron blood, but that has mostly been culled from the breeding stock. I’m sure Leena will be able to give us the difinitive word on this.

[Ambrey]

@Donella;3353131

Anyways, I am done with the thread. STF, there is no point. Some people don’t get the form to function thing and how it relates to ease of work and like most breed threads on this board, when someone asks a general question there are always people who like to dig around for the exception to the rule to try and “prove” something about the entire breed as a whole (and not surprisingly, these are always the people who are significantly biased towards this breed).

Donella, I’ve not been around that long but I’ve known you long enough to know that your reading comprehension couldn’t possibly be THAT bad.

Now you’re saying that we’re biased TOWARDS the breed b/c we disagree with you, while of course you’re completely impartial and totally correct.

Nobody has argued with your form and function, nobody has said every belgian is a dressage horse. Those who ride drafts (and there are several here) are simply arguing with those who a) make sweeping generalizations about drafts, b) argue that it’s unfair to try to do dressage with a draft, or c) discourge people from giving it a try.

If you’ll note, none of us are even saying much about Belgians (other than that some might be suitable), but responding to the several people who took this opportunity to make comments regarding “most drafts” or “most drafts and draft crosses,” the inevitable comments when someone brings up drafts in dressage.

[MyReality]

Phyxius, I saw the pic of your horse. He is very cute. I could not say he has a lot of talent for dressage. I can show you pic of my draft cross. You can see she does not have a lot of talent either. There is absolutely nothing to feel bad about. If I actually want a horse that gets 70 in fourth, I would not have bought her.

Phyxius, STF and others and me are talking about BREEDING. It is not about elitism. The question is presented as breed specific, therefore answered accordingly. Nobody said you must buy a particular breed to qualify in this sport. … and don’t you feel bad about yourself or horse. Nobody is laughing at people who don’t have a warmblood.

There are many reasons why we choose a non “warmblood”. There is absolutely no need to defend our position. Would I buy my draft cross again? You bet. But I wouldn’t buy him in the name of dressage prospect.

Breeder sometimes breed for a market, they also breed for the love of a breed characteristics, they also breed for a specific discipline. Since we’re in the dressage forum, we are mostly talking about breeding for the discipline of dressage. However, in reality all we want is a good solid uncomplicated horse, we are usually talking about breeding for a market we belong to (i.e. us older timid riders who just want to take it easy and have a good time)… some of us are talking about love of a breed, let it be hair or coloring or looks, that is totally legitimate as well.

I have ridden many draft crosses… in the 15-20 range. I would say the majority of them are laterally stiff. I do not mean the ability to go sideways. I mean they naturally are not inclined to flex at the poll or bend at the ribcage. Therefore many of them like to lean, on the leg or the bit… and that’s why the very common “drafts like to pull” problem.

[Ambrey]

@rileyt;3353237

Ambrey, if you think YOUR PARTICULAR HORSE has anything to do with this conversation (or the comments I made above), then we are talking at cross purposes and there’s no use continuing. If you read what I wrote, I conceded that the occasional Belgain Draft might even get to GP and be competitive. For all I know that could be YOUR HORSE. He might be lovely.

It is about all of our horses, isn’t it? If you are disparaging those who love to see drafts in dressage and ride drafts in dressage, how can I think that doesn’t pertain to me?

If you imply that those who support drafts in dressage are overestimating the ability of our horses, how does that not apply to my horse?

And if that’s not the case, then what was the point of the whole thing?

[Ambrey]

@rileyt;3353245

If you took 100 Belgian Draft foals, and 100 Hannoverian foals, and put them all in training with Steffan Peters… (or even your beloved trainer, or someone who specializes in drafties), do you really think you’d see more of the Belgian group get to Grand Prix? Do you? Because that is ALL that I’m saying.

And who here has said anything different?

Nobody.

But the statistical test you’ve described above does NOT prove that “most drafts can’t do dressage,” which is the premise that is being argued here. “Most drafts won’t get to GP” is a given, as most horses won’t get to GP. Some drafts are not suitable for dressage is a given. But when people who have never had experience with a suitable draft dressage horse start making claims like “most aren’t suitable” or “it’s unfair to push a draft to do dressage,” people come out of the woodwork.

I fail to see how horses getting to GP is at all related to the goals of most of us, or to the questions of the OP. We are talking about horses suitable to get to 3rd, 4th, PSG with decent scores. We’re talking about horses who might even be competitive locally with the right riding.

[STF]

I wasn’t talking about crosses and I think you calling certain regisitries “elite” is a bit um…rude?

Was not trying to be rude.

I can I could be misinferring what you typed, but I’m sure AQHA breeders, and JC members, closed stud books like friesians stamboek (since 1943) and the percheron studbook may feel differently.

Yes, but what are the majority of the breed types you are talking about doing? Fresians so make it to GP and yes do good, but those are still few and in between. Im talking of those like the SWB’s that have had an active and dedicated book since 1661 and the state stud has dedicated their world into breed type to follow the three major disiplines. That is what I mean by elite. The ones who have did nothing else but work to improve for the Olympic sports.

Now, like I said I could be entirely wrong and you’re only referring to the attempts to mix draft blood with warmblood lines or TB lines to produce an “american” warmblood.

No, I a very anti on that thought. Your mixing two different types which is not a good process. The idea is to cross like to like and slowly try to improve postive traits.

I agree that breeding for the BEST possible horse is the goal. I disagree that that always means breeding with Grand Prix as the goal. Most riders will NOT get to that level and most riders can not handle a horse bred and trained to GET to that level. So, why not breed a horse for dressage that CAN be ridden and brought along by the median american rider? A bad rider on a great horse is not impressive. A good rider on a good horse IS. A great rider on a great horse is magnificent! I’m not disagreeing that a warmblood from an established bloodline has a better chance of being an upper level horse than a draft, I’m just saying that if you have a sound, healthy, willing, intelligent horse there is not reason it can’t do dressage.

I disagree here totally. I have yet to talk to someone who thinks that 2nd level is the end all in this sport. I hear people say… “Id like to get to 2nd level”, but given a chance riding a piaffe to passage transistion would be the end all. Nobody that starts this very complex and expensive sport just WANTS to stay at low levels, maybe they have to, but everyone wants to ride that soft light piaffe one day. If someone says… “No way, I hate FEI”, I’ll call them a liar. Deep down its everyone goal one day, even if it will never be reached by many. BUT… think fo this. How many horses are being ridden out there that dont “offer” better movements to make it easier for someone to get to their goals. Horses with bad hip angles or way to straight shoulders that are not made for this. Drafts were made to pull carts and that is the truth. Their hip, their body, etc is not made for upper level work and conformation faults can cause a horse to break down over time. Thats just fact.

I’m just saying that if you have a sound, healthy, willing, intelligent horse there is not reason it can’t do dressage.

Very true, ANY horse can do T and 1st levels, its the collective work in 2nd and above where you find issues after a while.

Really, really! I don’t know WHY people try to make dressage so elite. Jeez, get off the high horse and ENJOY what you’re doing. I enjoy riding my horse, he enjoys being ridden, people enjoy watching him I’m not sure why it’s such a bad thing?!

Because after 10 yrs of people bringing me horses not built for the job and then getting upset they could not scores well in collective work and then watching them get upset once I put them on one of my “bred for it” horses and letting them feel horse soft, supple and relaxed it was for a horse to do some movements. Because its the look on their faces when I say, just sit a bit heavier in your hip in the direction of the canter and he will change and to see the look of awe on their faces. THEN… THEN… to see them finally get upset for the years of money and such they put into a horse that could not take them very far and them get upset that they “wasted” time when they could have been so much farther along by now with a horse that was built and bred for it.

Also, I’d like someone to please, please, please give me examples of all of these broken down drafts, QHs, etc that have attempted to do dressage and are now ruined. I mean dressage has STRENGTHENED every horse I’ve worked with and it’s made NONE of them lame. Maybe someone isn’t “doing it” right?

I bet most are not doing it right and pushing the horses before all the parts are in place. Even now we see the “bred for it” horses going around stiff, upset and not ready for the mid/upper levels and MANY of those break down too. Its goes back to the above statement that you can only ask the body so much to do something its not built for before you start having issues. Its basic anatomy.

[Ambrey]

@MyReality;3353875

Phyxius, I saw the pic of your horse. He is very cute. I could not say he has a lot of talent for dressage. I can show you pic of my draft cross. You can see she does not have a lot of talent either. There is absolutely nothing to feel bad about. If I actually want a horse that gets 70 in fourth, I would not have bought her.

You determined that her horse isn’t talented from a PICTURE?

Sheesh.

I rest my case (and rileyt, this is exactly my point earlier).

FWIW, around here 70+ at 4th is a very expensive horse with a very talented rider (I know, we have such a combo at the barn, actually in Lewin’s training barn, and she’s phenominal. Unless you are independently wealthy, you can’t afford that horse, and she is one of the most talented riders I’ve ever seen).

[STF]

That is a true fact Ambrey, money is the issues. Its like buying a Porsche compared to a Mac Truck and the prices range! :lol:

[Ajierene]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3353903]
But the statistical test you’ve described above does NOT prove that “most drafts can’t do dressage,” which is the premise that is being argued here. “Most drafts won’t get to GP” is a given, as most horses won’t get to GP. Some drafts are not suitable for dressage is a given. But when people who have never had experience with a suitable draft dressage horse start making claims like “most aren’t suitable” or “it’s unfair to push a draft to do dressage,” people come out of the woodwork.

I fail to see how horses getting to GP is at all related to the goals of most of us, or to the questions of the OP. We are talking about horses suitable to get to 3rd, 4th, PSG with decent scores. We’re talking about horses who might even be competitive locally with the right riding.[/QUOTE]

I think this is where the disconnect in the conversation is. I see the posters talking about drafts, in general, not being good in dressage meaning that they will not be competitive in the upper levels, while the proponents are saying dressage is fine for drafts and are mostly talking about the lower levels.

The point of those saying drafts are not as good in dressage is to say, if you were to buy a horse, sight unseen, to be competitive in dressage at the upper levels - don’t get a Belgian Draft (some are saying don’t get a draft), statistically speaking you are going to be disappointed. If you are not interested in upper levels - do what you want.

[STF]

I want to add something else though when it comes to money.
Breeders WANT their stock to do well and will nego ALOT to good riders and riders taht will dedicate themself to having the horse get to the best of its ability. So, that is a factor everyone who is serious needs to think of when looking. TALK to the breeders, really…

[STF]

If you are not interested in upper levels - do what you want.

AMEN!!!

[Ambrey]

@STF;3353932

That is a true fact Ambrey, money is the issues. Its like buying a Porsche compared to a Mac Truck and the prices range! :lol:

Except if you look hard enough, you can get a mack truck that goes pretty fast and is fun to drive. Yet no matter how many mack trucks are in the race, they’ll never measure up will they?

[Phyxius]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3353949]
Except if you look hard enough, you can get a mack truck that goes pretty fast and is fun to drive. Yet no matter how many mack trucks are in the race, they’ll never measure up will they?[/QUOTE]

:winkgrin:

[canticle]

I wonder how many of the vehemently anti-draft people are also WB breeders with their own financial interests to protect? :rolleyes:

I can’t imagine why some people would care so much about what other people ride that they would make up stories about horses going lame, breaking down etc. There is NO proof that dressage is dangerous, unfair, or otherwise harmful when done correctly. If you find it so cruel to engage in dressage training, then I suspect you are doing it incorrectly. Interestingly, no one has addressed my question about why drafts are not banned at shows if they are so unsuitable. I think it is because draft horse conformation makes dressage even more beneficial to them.

Meanwhile, people will continue to enjoy their drafts and draft crosses, despite what people on the internet say. That is the one good thing about these threads. People always come out of the woodwork to share their positive experiences.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRei]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;3347440]
Haven’t we had this discussion about 100 times before? :([/QUOTE]

Most Certainly.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRei]

@canticle;3354093

I wonder how many of the vehemently anti-draft people are also WB breeders with their own financial interests to protect? :rolleyes:

Oh please. I promise, I haven’t bred a warmblood in my life, nor any other horse, and I don’t sell warmbloods, and I own a TB.

Would you push a kid with the build to do shot-putting into gymnastics, too? :eek: