Ben, Jan and Amy Ebeling Named in Sexual Assault Civil Suit

[lazaret]

@ASB_Stars

If I was a parent with a 14 year old daughter, I am going to be pretty upset about this, and dig a little deeper.

Now that we’ve established that you’re the hypothetical parent of the year, but not the parent of this 14 year old, I think you can probably take a seat now.

Regardless of what they did or didn’t observe or care about or whatever, I’m sure no parent wants to hear that their kid was assaulted and they didn’t notice all these things that in hindsight seem clear but likely weren’t at the time. It’s a wound we don’t need to rub salt into. Apologies that Carrie Kehring has to go through all this again after everyone did the same thing to her about her daughter.

[SillyHorse]

@ASB_Stars

If I understand correctly, the parents of this poor girl saw her in the condition that she was in after the incident, and apparently didn’t see a red flag. If this is correct, THAT I would be concerned about.

I’m going to throw this out there: Is it possible that this was not the first time this girl’s parents saw her in that condition, and they were not surprised by it? And that is why they were not particularly alarmed?

For the sake of argument let’s say she frequently got drunk and disheveled. HYPOTHETICALLY.

If her allegations prove to be true, in no way does her condition that day, or any other day, justify someone raping her.

I hope I am making it crystal clear that I do not blame her for what she claims happened, just offering up a possible reason her parents weren’t rushing off to the police.

[FitzE]

@ASB_Stars

When?

(i) not our business; and (ii) does not matter. They were upset by the state of her on the day (recorded in the filing); they expressed that upset to the BOs on the day (recorded in the filing); they dug deeper and involved the sheriff’s office, SS, and filed a civil suit.

What more do you want from them as far as a reaction?

[DownYonder]

@trubandloki

This made me giggle. I am pretty darn old and I can promise you that it is not a change in parenting. Some parents just are not watching their kids every move.
I can promise you that my mother had no idea what I was wearing on the outside on any given day, let alone what I was wearing underneath. Heck, I did my own laundry too, so she would not have known what I owned even.

LOL, apparently my upbringing was quite a bit different. My mother absolutely did take note of what I (and my siblings) were wearing, and she would have had apoplexy if I had tried to leave the house sans bra as a teenager. And if she had picked a 14 y/o me up from somewhere and I was disheveled and heavily intoxicated to the point of being semi-conscious, and I had been with an intoxicated boy - OMG, her radar would have gone berserk. I also have no doubt that if I was as incapacitated as Jane Doe alleges in her suit, my mother would have helped me undress and get into bed (instead of leaving me to stagger into bed on my own), and she would have gone even more berserk to realize that my bra was missing. Furthermore, I can easily imagine my father having a “discussion” with said teenage boy, and his parents, and probably even making a visit to the police station.

And yes, I knew at the time that my parents were a bit strict, but it is an eye-opener to realize how many other folks were raised by parents with an entirely different mindset.

[DownYonder]

@enjoytheride

It’s apparently so important that multiple people on this thread have stated that the rape never happened because the parents weren’t observant of it. Including multiple inappropriate discussions of exactly what they should have noticed.

Who stated it “never happened”? I must have missed those posts.

I do recall seeing posts - and making posts of my own - asking some questions about some things that struck me as a bit odd or curious about the case. It may come as a shock to some folks, but we do still have free speech in this nation (despite rabid attempts by some to shut down any discourse they don’t agree with).

So if you don’t like my posts, you can flag them for the Mods, or put me on ignore. YOU (and your buds) are not going to tell me what I can and cannot say on a public forum.

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

Even 14 year olds with The Worst Parents in the World - utterly neglectful and uninvolved - do not deserve to be assaulted ever.

I absolutely agree. As I said up-thread, if this truly did occur as alleged, then BE needs to held accountable. As do his parents, for trying to cover it up.

And again - I pray for justice for all those who have been wronged so grievously.

[DownYonder]

@SillyHorse

Is it possible that this was not the first time this girl’s parents saw her in that condition, and they were not surprised by it? And that is why they were not particularly alarmed?

The filing states that they were “horrified” at her condition. So it sounds to me like they were pretty alarmed.

[OverandOnward]

Well, there are the posters who will stay on the high ground, and those that will not. I guess we find out from here which posters will lead the tone of the thread and make it worth reading – or not worth reading.

We do not know everything that happened.

We do not know everything the parents did, everything they didn’t do, what they said, what they didn’t say. What they were thinking, what they intended, why they did things or didn’t do things. On that day, the next day, and all of the days forever after.

Of course same for the girl, for the boy, his parents, other people … etc. & so on.

In these troubling situations so many people seem to think that every fact is known to the public, and they can deduce the truth from what they’ve seen, heard and read. So they know what everyone did and didn’t do. And why they did it or didn’t do it. And what that means about those people.

But it’s not so. We will probably never know all events, all actions, all reasons, whatever constitutes the fullest truth of all that happened. We have no basis for speculation. We’re just the audience for the crumbs that filter out of many flawed information channels. It’s not CSI or SVU where we get the whole story and all of the motivations, flawed and otherwise.

For us random bystanders this is just a learning opportunity. But unfortunately there are those who will treat it as if it were a Netflix series. Hopefully the principals can see past that and ignore irrelevant sm dissections. Hopefully this thread stays informative and doesn’t drip down into meaningless speculation.

[FitzE]

(i) I was not opining on timing in the post you quoted, just that there is a fair bit of evidence that they were, indeed, upset; (ii) as to when, my thoughts are noted in Post #337 above.

@FitzE

@ASB_Stars

When?

(i) not our business; and (ii) does not matter. They were upset by the state of her on the day (recorded in the filing); they expressed that upset to the BOs on the day (recorded in the filing); they dug deeper and involved the sheriff’s office, SS, and filed a civil suit.

What more do you want from them as far as a reaction?

[ASB_Stars]

@lazaret

Now that we’ve established that you’re the hypothetical parent of the year, but not the parent of this 14 year old, I think you can probably take a seat now.

Regardless of what they did or didn’t observe or care about or whatever, I’m sure no parent wants to hear that their kid was assaulted and they didn’t notice all these things that in hindsight seem clear but likely weren’t at the time. It’s a wound we don’t need to rub salt into. Apologies that Carrie Kehring has to go through all this again after everyone did the same thing to her about her daughter.

Yes, this is a bit condescending.

You might notice that I used the word “forensic”. My point is that we can only try and learn from what went before.

Or, be like you, and ignore the signs, I guess.

[ASB_Stars]

@SillyHorse

I’m going to throw this out there: Is it possible that this was not the first time this girl’s parents saw her in that condition, and they were not surprised by it? And that is why they were not particularly alarmed?

For the sake of argument let’s say she frequently got drunk and disheveled. HYPOTHETICALLY.

If her allegations prove to be true, in no way does her condition that day, or any other day, justify someone raping her.

I hope I am making it crystal clear that I do not blame her for what she claims happened, just offering up a possible reason her parents weren’t rushing off to the police.

With due respect, I certainly hope not. NO ONE deserves to be raped, or have any violence committed upon them, but if this kid was a habitual drinker (in your example), that’s even more troubling. Hypothetically, what kind of things led her to drink, and what other issues did she have?

[rothmpp]

A couple of general observations about this thread and then some specifics about this filing:

I think there is a bit of a hangover effect from the MB trial/threads where dissecting what may have happened due to the postings of some involved has leaked over. So far there is no reason to be doing that here. But it’s just our nature at this point.

I am having a bit of whiplash from the 180 switch of some of the most adamant LK supporters having a bit of a victim blaming feel to their posts on this subject.

Now, to specifics about this filing:

I find it likely that the timing of the filing was actually intentional. That’s ok - it’s a legal tactic as well as a tactic to prompt a response from the USEF as the WC team selection is imminent. I don’t consider nefarious at all.

I also think it was filed before the SS sport issued their findings as a way to shine a light that the process takes forever, and in their eyes entirely too long.

We have no way of knowing why there were no criminal charges filed, lack of confidence of getting a conviction, lack of forensic evidence, unwillingness of Jane Doe to testify, which of course is her choice, or some combination of factors.

it is interesting that the Ebelings have relocated to Florida with some of the protections available for assets in the case of a civil judgement.

I don’t read too much into the “horrified” description - of course the complaint is going to read as dramatically as possible. Though the apparent date inconsistencies show a lack of detail - funny enough I initially read it as a second incident with a different person, but I believe many of the legal experts here have said in the past that these complaints are often a bit sloppy and will get cleaned up.

I don think it’s interesting that there are rumblings of other complaints/issues in regard the BE.

As is ALWAYS the case, outside observers will never know the full story, nor are we entitled to it, especially in a situation so deeply personal to the complainant. This is in no way meant to speak to whose position I believe.

I think it is important to remember that in the case of a sexual assault allegation, especially one that the prosecutor/grand jury declined to file charges, there is little upside for the victim to file a lawsuit. Their lives, actions, and motivations are dragged out and put under a microscope. They rarely manage to stay anonymous. The only thing they may get out of it is shedding a light on the perpetrator, and maybe some compensation.

[ASB_Stars]

@happilyretired

We don’t know when the investigations were initiated … the alleged incident happened in 2017 (per the complaint) so about 4.5 years ago.

It was proposed upthread that the investigation might have begun at that time. If so, I wonder why it took this long, and if not, I realize that the poor kid might have just gotten to where she could talk about it.

[ASB_Stars]

@DownYonder

The filing states that they were “horrified” at her condition. So it sounds to me like they were pretty alarmed.

Once again, I am simply wondering why they didn’t have her examined at that time. And, clearly, for anyone who is reading this, it is a cautionary tale.

[OverandOnward]

@ASB_Stars

Once again, I am simply wondering why they didn’t have her examined at that time. And, clearly, for anyone who is reading this, it is a cautionary tale.

If that is the case, then while likely we will not know the reasons, but personally I will assume they had the best reasons not to.

[DownYonder]

@rothmpp

I think it is important to remember that in the case of a sexual assault allegation, especially one that the prosecutor/grand jury declined to file charges, there is little upside for the victim to file a lawsuit. Their lives, actions, and motivations are dragged out and put under a microscope. They rarely manage to stay anonymous. The only thing they may get out of it is shedding a light on the perpetrator, and maybe some compensation.

Good post overall. I’m quoting this paragraph to point out that the benefit of “shedding a light on the (alleged) perpetrator” is not only to warn others about him, and his parents involvement in trying to cover things up, but also to hopefully serve as NOTICE to other males in the equestrian community that “we” are not going to put up sexual predation anymore. (And although I shouldn’t have to spell it out - yes, I know there are occasional incidents of female predation, but the vast majority of sexual predators are male. And by “we,” I mostly mean “we girls” although I am also fully aware that predation of “boys” also occurs - and again, primarily by males.)

And again I repeat - I hope justice is served.

[OverandOnward]

For what it is worth, random information re a rape kit, in general not specific to this case …

Some medical staff who do rape and other such exams will not do it if they believe it will cause (or even is causing) more trauma.

The exam can be painful. It can be triggering.

A full exam includes evidence collection procedures for the victim’s entire body. Meaning disrobing and standing on a large piece of paper while being photographed and touched by people you’ve never met before. To capture bruises, fibers, dirt, leaves, etc. evidence. It’s not quick. (Exam-givers do have the option to limit the exam.)

The victim did not ask to be in this situation. At the time of the rape their control of their own body was taken away. And now because their body was invaded once, they must allow another intrusion? Possibly by a stranger if their own doctor is not available timely? Sometimes the victim can feel emotionally as if they are still not in control of what is happening to them. Some say that physically/emotionally it feels as if they are being raped again.

In some jurisdictions, exams are performed by mandatory reporters who are required by law to notify law enforcement. The exam triggers an investigation including police interviews of the victim, which can be re-traumatizing. Investigation procedures will reveal the events to certain family and friends. It has to be assumed that some will not resist the impulse to gossip.

I can only imagine the emotions of a 14 year old whose horse-oriented social milieu will be turned upside down if/when this information gets out, which it will if the exam triggers mandatory reporting. She has to decide now. She can’t take a few days to process it. She never dreamed she would be in this situation. She is completely unprepared for the aftermath of this deeply traumatizing situation. She has to be feeling that if this gets out, her normal life will be over. Her friends will want to ask questions she isn’t comfortable discussing. The horse people will know. The horse kids will take sides, with her or with BE. She may be convinced that she will never again feel comfortable in the barn or around horse people. And her school friends are likely to know as well.

What I imagine: Her frantic parents on the phone to a few closest friends and family, maybe to the rape crisis center, maybe an anonymous call to LE, asking for their experience and their advice. Wanting to understand the ramifications before they make a critical phone call or ER visit that will trigger a new set of events, after which there is no going back. The parents and their daughter learning for the first time about what a rape kit entails, and maybe about mandatory reporting and investigations. Maybe hearing from friends who they know are rape victims themselves to learn about their feelings and their advice.

I don’t know why so many people think that crime victims go through this orderly step-by-step law enforcement process as they have seen on tv. Real life is not like that, at all.

The article linked below discusses some pros & cons of performing a rape kit.

If, like the majority of survivors, this patient chooses not to report her assault, performing the exam might be a second non-consensual invasion of her body, as well as an unnecessary collection of evidence. This runs counter to the dictate “do no harm.”

The primary reason not to conduct the exam is the value of autonomy (right to self-determination), which means patients must consent to receiving medical care.

https://emoryhealthdigest.emory.edu/issues/2018/spring/medical_ethicist/to-test-not-to-test/index.html

[Rubyroo]

@DownYonder

LOL, apparently my upbringing was quite a bit different. My mother absolutely did take note of what I (and my siblings) were wearing, and she would have had apoplexy if I had tried to leave the house sans bra as a teenager.

@DownYonder

And yes, I knew at the time that my parents were a bit strict, but it is an eye-opener to realize how many other folks were raised by parents with an entirely different mindset.

I don’t know about anyone else here, but my parents were sometimes not home when I went out as a teenager, and even if they were, they were busy doing the things that all parents do every day - cleaning, mowing the lawn, folding laundry, preparing meals - and certainly weren’t hovering by the door waiting to do an underwear check on me and my sisters before we went out with friends.

I agree that it seems like an entirely different mindset, because your parents seem similar to what we refer to today as “helicopter parents”. Despite the differences though, it looks like we all survived!

[trubandloki]

@Rubyroo

I don’t know about anyone else here, but my parents were sometimes not home when I went out as a teenager, and even if they were, they were busy doing the things that all parents do every day - cleaning, mowing the lawn, folding laundry, preparing meals - and certainly weren’t hovering by the door waiting to do an underwear check on me and my sisters before we went out with friends.

Yes!
This!
I was sitting here thinking I do not think my mother helped me change and get to bed once after I was old enough to dress myself.
My parent’s had jobs and things to do.
Add that I was typically a kid who did not get in trouble.

Disclaimer again - simply discussing the whole parent knowing/helicopter parent topic. Not saying these parents did or did not do anything.

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

The parents of the alleged victim apparently did not notice the missing bra, did not go to the police or the hospital, and permitted their daughter to continue training there for “some months”. If the Ebelings are going to be sued for their casual attitude of “kids will be kids”, it seems completely pertinent to point out that the response of the victim’s parents was pretty symmetrical. Even after knowing of the underage drinking and the Ebelings attitude of “kids will be kids”, the victim’s parents continued to let her train there for “some months”. I wonder how many months.

You seem to be going to great lengths to shift hypothetical blame. The parents of the plaintiff paid money to professional coaches/trainers that they entrusted with care of their daughter. The filer of the suit is not the parents, but the (now adult, then minor child) victim. While I don’t know whether the behavior of the adult Ebelings did or did not amount to inadequate supervision, I think it is pretty low to assume that the parents of the alleged victim (who were paying clients) is “pretty symmetrical”.

This focus on the actions or inactions of the adults in the aftermath of the incident is tangential and distracts from the HUGELY disturbing allegations.

If the allegations are true, it isn’t the actions AFTER THE FACT that matter, rather it is the actions leading up to and during the act that matter. The alleged victim’s parents’ actions or inactions therefore aren’t likely of import, whereas the actions or inactions of the alleged perpetrator and his parents are, as they were business owners with an obligation to protect their clients.

I thought that advocating for victims was a large driver behind your involvement in these threads. This does not sound like victim advocacy.