Ben, Jan and Amy Ebeling Named in Sexual Assault Civil Suit

[CurrentlyHorseless]

@erinmeri

@Knights_Mom

I’m sorry if you were offended. That was not my intent.

Thank you, and I apologize! I was disgusted by their quote and that biased my interpretation of what you had said. I’m sorry.

As for their quote… Rapes are hugely underreported and studies suggest only about 5% of reported rapes may be baseless. Victims have little to “gain” coming forward. IMO, in this day and age, better to deny the allegations and say you’re cooperating and leave it at that. I don’t think the quote did them any favors.

Re bolded: The Eblings are saying the rape accusation is baseless.

Re “coming forward”. The alleged victim has already come forward and filed complaints with LE and with SS. It’s not unreported. As of now, neither of those bodies has charged or sanctioned Ebling. IMHO, I would have thought that if he was going to be criminally charged, he would have been charged by now.

The complaint to SS was made a year and a half ago. To their credit, SS has demonstrated that they don’t shrink from going after “big names”.

I have zero personal inside information on what happened in an avocado grove the Ventura County in April 2017. There’s a big disparity between what the lawyers on each side say.

However, in the year and a half since this was reported to LE and SS, no criminal charges or sanctions have yet appeared. I think there is some information value in that observation.

SS investigations are confidential, and it was not SS that said that they have received other allegations against Ebling. It was the plaintiff’s lawyer that asserted that, with the preamble “Upon information and belief …” Whenever I see a legal filing from a highly partisan lawyer with the phrase “Upon information and belief”, I’m skeptical. It might be true, it might not.

You asked earlier what difference it made whether he gave her wine or wine plus “drug”. Huge difference. Offering her wine from a purloined bottle of wine vs offering her wine surreptitiously spiked with rohypnol is night and day different.

[Sdel]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

It fell apart behind the scenes, and from news reports, it sounded like the victims lost faith and trust in the SafeSport investigator, and stopped cooperating.

Which begs the question, why? You don’t jump ship if things are going your way. It makes me think this attorney is trying to force a specific issue with SS.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Sdel

Which begs the question, why? You don’t jump ship if things are going your way

This article explains in detail what happened with the SafeSport investigation, and actually quotes the victims. Scott Reid - the reporter - has done a number of articles on SafeSport issues in gymnastics and other sports. He’s a really good reporter and this is a niche for him.

SafeSport documents detail sexual abuse allegations against horse trainer Bob...

[Knights_Mom]

@CurrentlyHorseless

@erinmeri

@Knights_Mom

I’m sorry if you were offended. That was not my intent.

Thank you, and I apologize! I was disgusted by their quote and that biased my interpretation of what you had said. I’m sorry.

As for their quote… Rapes are hugely underreported and studies suggest only about 5% of reported rapes may be baseless. Victims have little to “gain” coming forward. IMO, in this day and age, better to deny the allegations and say you’re cooperating and leave it at that. I don’t think the quote did them any favors.

Re bolded: The Eblings are saying the rape accusation is baseless.

Re “coming forward”. The alleged victim has already come forward and filed complaints with LE and with SS. It’s not unreported. As of now, neither of those bodies has charged or sanctioned Ebling. IMHO, I would have thought that if he was going to be criminally charged, he would have been charged by now.

The complaint to SS was made a year and a half ago. To their credit, SS has demonstrated that they don’t shrink from going after “big names”.

I have zero personal inside information on what happened in an avocado grove the Ventura County in April 2017. There’s a big disparity between what the lawyers on each side say.

However, in the year and a half since this was reported to LE and SS, no criminal charges or sanctions have yet appeared. I think there is some information value in that observation.

SS investigations are confidential, and it was not SS that said that they have received other allegations against Ebling. It was the plaintiff’s lawyer that asserted that, with the preamble “Upon information and belief …” Whenever I see a legal filing from a highly partisan lawyer with the phrase “Upon information and belief”, I’m skeptical. It might be true, it might not.

You asked earlier what difference it made whether he gave her wine or wine plus “drug”. Huge difference. Offering her wine from a purloined bottle of wine vs offering her wine surreptitiously spiked with rohypnol is night and day different.

Every single legal filing of a complaint starts with the phrase “Upon information and belief”. I used to type the phrase myself 50 times a day when taking applications for Orders of Protection.

The use of that phrase is standard practice and in no way, ever, at all, should be used to ascertain the validity of a complaint.

[Paint_Party]

Bob’s case did go to SafeSport arbitration not long ago. Jane Doe (K.D. in the OC Register newspaper article) was terminally ill by that time, and on hospice. Without going into details, the ultimate result was the SafeSport sanction being lifted.

Last I heard, the civil suit against Bob was still on, because there is the second Jane Doe. Yet perhaps that civil case has run out of steam.

Here’s an article about SafeSport’s current image. If you scroll down toward the end, it mentions KD, her death, and Bob’s SS case.
https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/us-center-safesport-olympic-movements-misconduct-watchdog-struggles/story?id=83061994

[erinmeri]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Re bolded: The Eblings are saying the rape accusation is baseless.

Re “coming forward”. The alleged victim has already come forward and filed complaints with LE and with SS. It’s not unreported. As of now, neither of those bodies has charged or sanctioned Ebling. IMHO, I would have thought that if he was going to be criminally charged, he would have been charged by now.

The complaint to SS was made a year and a half ago. To their credit, SS has demonstrated that they don’t shrink from going after “big names”.

I have zero personal inside information on what happened in an avocado grove the Ventura County in April 2017. There’s a big disparity between what the lawyers on each side say.

However, in the year and a half since this was reported to LE and SS, no criminal charges or sanctions have yet appeared. I think there is some information value in that observation.

SS investigations are confidential, and it was not SS that said that they have received other allegations against Ebling. It was the plaintiff’s lawyer that asserted that, with the preamble “Upon information and belief …” Whenever I see a legal filing from a highly partisan lawyer with the phrase “Upon information and belief”, I’m skeptical. It might be true, it might not.

You asked earlier what difference it made whether he gave her wine or wine plus “drug”. Huge difference. Offering her wine from a purloined bottle of wine vs offering her wine surreptitiously spiked with rohypnol is night and day different.

The complaint alleges that “Almost immediately, Plaintiff lost complete control of her body…” - which doesn’t sound like it was wine. Nowhere in the complaint does it say what kind of alcohol was in the bottle.

Regardless of what was in the bottle, he allegedly gave the girl something that rendered her unable control her body, left her in an out of consciousness, and therefore inherently unable to consent. The complaint alleges she was so incapacitated that he dressed her and carried her to the house, and that her parents were “horrified” by her condition upon picking her up.

So, it doesn’t matter what he gave her. It matters that in the condition she was in, she could not have consented.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Oh wow. Thanks for updating.

[Paint_Party]

@Knights_Mom

Every single legal filing of a complaint starts with the phrase “Upon information and belief”. I used to type the phrase myself 50 times a day when taking applications for Orders of Protection.

The use of that phrase is standard practice and in no way, ever, at all, should be used to ascertain the validity of a complaint.

Thank you. While I certainly lack any real professional or personal knowledge of the legal system (neither am I good at vacuuming), I’m aware of the use of that phrase. It’s not meant to immediately call into question the validity of what follows it.

As for SafeSport, their wheels turn slowly. Yet they are amazingly thorough, and extremely efficient at ferreting out information and potential witnesses/collaborators in the horse world. So personally, I don’t doubt that their investigations uncovered other allegations of misconduct against minors with regard to Ben. Now, whether those additional allegations stand up to scrutiny, that remains to be seen.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Paint_Party

Here’s an article about SafeSport’s current image. If you scroll down toward the end, it mentions KD, her death, and Bob’s SS case.
https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/us-center-safesport-olympic-movements-misconduct-watchdog-struggles/story?id=83061994

One more reply to you.

Wow this is an interesting and important deep dive into SafeSport.

For anyone who has an opinion on SafeSport, positive or negative, this is worth reading. I’ve been aware of criticism, and the argument from John Manly (who I follow on Twitter and wh I deeply respect), that SafeSport really is in place to protect the USOPC… but this reporting really goes deep into the issues and conflicts involved.

I still think it’s better to have it than not. Look at some of the long rumored abuse cases in equestrian sport that have finally been addressed in a post SafeSport environment. But… SafeSport is imperfect. For sure. And coming forward as a victim of any abuse or assault? It’s tough. Very very tough. Sadly, that’s the nature of these things.

[Mondo]

I’m not into victim blaming, nor am I assuming guilt without due process. I do think that if there are other victims found, then it looks pretty bad for Ben. That said, I remember being 14, drinking wine, and hanging out with a guy older than me. I can easily envision a scenario where this girl did consent and would only claim “drugging and in and out of consciousness” to keep her parents from finding out that she was sexually active.

Whatever happened, I do hope the truth comes out. It’s an ugly, messy situation. I feel so bad for all parties involved.

[FitzE]

@Mondo

I can easily envision a scenario where this girl did consent and would only claim “drugging and in and out of consciousness” to keep her parents from finding out that she was sexually active.

Except he had to carry her back to the barn and people there, including her parents, noted her condition and even his parents commented on the drinking, so I don’t think the incapacitation is a story by the victim.

[ASB_Stars]

@FitzE

Except he had to carry her back to the barn and people there, including her parents, noted her condition and even his parents commented on the drinking, so I don’t think the incapacitation is a story by the victim.

This does beg the question- why didn’t they do something THEN? If she was in that bad of shape, and intoxicated, and a minor- why wouldn’t you try to find out exactly what happened then?

I am not excusing the rape allegations, I just don’t understand why you would wait.

[punchy]

The plaintiff is now 20. She is suing on her own behalf. Who knows why her parents did or did not do what they did 5 years ago?

[Scribbler]

@ASB_Stars

@FitzE

Except he had to carry her back to the barn and people there, including her parents, noted her condition and even his parents commented on the drinking, so I don’t think the incapacitation is a story by the victim.

This does beg the question- why didn’t they do something THEN? If she was in that bad of shape, and intoxicated, and a minor- why wouldn’t you try to find out exactly what happened then?

I am not excusing the rape allegations, I just don’t understand why you would wait.

Girl is 14. She is still intoxicated from a date rape drug. She may or may not fully realize at that point that she was assaulted. She may know and be ashamed and hide it from her parents. It may take a couple of years for her to realize it had lasting results and to see how SS works and be mature enough to talk to her parents.

At 14 she was probably already in “big trouble” for appearing drunk. I can certainly imagine not wanting to also admit you “let a boy do that to you” and get screamed at as well for that.

Her horse, her coach, her life are all on that farm. She thought boy was a friend. No 14 year old will risk losing her horse for anything.

It makes total sense to me.

As far as SS, we’ve been round the block on this in multiple previous threads. SS is deliberately set up to run its own investigations. It is empowered to act in cases that do not break any actual law (like bullying and bodyshaming) as well as cases involving illegal acts that don’t make it to court, or have expired limits (like sexual assault). They can do this because suspension from a private sports association has a much lower bar than criminal prosecution.

[punchy]

@Mondo

I’m not into victim blaming, nor am I assuming guilt without due process. I do think that if there are other victims found, then it looks pretty bad for Ben. That said, I remember being 14, drinking wine, and hanging out with a guy older than me. I can easily envision a scenario where this girl did consent and would only claim “drugging and in and out of consciousness” to keep her parents from finding out that she was sexually active.

This makes no sense. The plaintiff is now an adult. She is not 14. Her parents are not bringing the allegations; she is.

[lazaret]

@Sdel

Criminal trials have different standards in what it takes to be indicted and what it takes to be found guilty at trial. And even criminal trials seem to be highly manipulated into getting specific verdicts these days.

As for different fact finders = different outcomes, then I guess that is why I don’t like SS. If you are going to ban someone, your evidence had better be clear cut enough that everyone will see it your way otherwise it’s a pretty arbitrary decision.

Point being, it doesn’t matter what the standard is.

At some point, both a prosecutor’s office and a grand jury felt there were enough facts to bring a case to criminal court - it’s not just up to the prosecutor.

And yet people are found innocent. By the reasoning you gave, that should never happen, because the evidence presented to one group should be enough to convince any and all. If the investigator feels this individual is the perpetrator, then all others should as well. That’s exactly what you said - “ultimately it stands to reason that if both civil lawsuits and SS use a “preponderance of the evidence” then the outcomes should, in theory, be the same.” Two different groups of people should agree, in theory, on the outcome based on that information. However, we all know that will never be universally true.

It doesn’t matter whether the standard is “an inkling of truth” or “beyond a reasonable doubt” so long as one person for whatever reason fails to agree with another on the meaning of that evidence.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@happilyretired

Who knows what really went on. I will say that if my daughter had been in that bad a shape when I went to pick her up I wouldn’t have let her go back.

If my 14 year old got drunk at a barn where we were boarding and training… That would be it for me with that barn. Even if my child had voluntarily participated, and no assault like this had happened, etc etc. I simply would lose confidence that it was a safe environment, and it would be time to move on before anything worse happened.

Over and over in these stories, we hear things like, “That was the only place in the immediate area to offer a high enough level of training for ‘Jane’ to pursue her dreams of competing at X,Y, or Z level, etc etc…

As a parent… I just cringe at that. NOTHING is more important than my children’s safety. Period. And 14? They most certainly are still a minor… and it’s actually a bit of a vulnerable age as they are in that adolescent phase of testing boundaries, with a lack of understanding of adult risks, and sometimes they are blind to the bigger picture, and just not thinking about long term issues in a meaningful way yet.

[lazaret]

@CurrentlyHorseless

Whenever I see a legal filing from a highly partisan lawyer with the phrase “Upon information and belief”, I’m skeptical. It might be true, it might not.

In legal writing, this statement is used to identify any statement made that is based not on firsthand knowledge but that the declarant believes to be true and factual and is based in a reasonable, good faith effort to know the truth of the matter stated.

The statement protects the maker of the claim from statement of falsehood or perjury. You will see it about 290371987491^32 times in legal proceedings because it is the basis upon which everything is founded - a claim is being made because the plaintiff believes based on his or her available information that the allegation or claim is true.

[SBrentnall]

Amelie Kovac (who worked for the Ebelings for 4 years) just posted this on FB:
https://www.facebook.com/amelie.kovac/posts/pfbid02wKaLCbJh1wnDLbv3pYZExGj6NoGimX9JmANxodbzJEP5r6krdievtnNwpbKTPqz6l

“And the truth finally comes out…
Heartbroken for the victim and outraged that such a person is representing the US. Hoping for justice for everyone involved.”

And from her in the comments:
“they sure know how to present themselves to visitors. I worked there for almost 4 years. The things that go on behind closed doors are pretty incredible.”

“I’m glad you had a good experience. Unfortunately, the vast majority didn’t have that chance. I rather keep it at that for public information.”

[BigMama1]

@CurrentlyHorseless

You asked earlier what difference it made whether he gave her wine or wine plus “drug”. Huge difference. Offering her wine from a purloined bottle of wine vs offering her wine surreptitiously spiked with rohypnol is night and day different.

Is it? Dusk and twilight different, not night and day. Giving a 14 year old alcohol and then raping her while she’s incapacitated doesn’t sound much different than giving her roofies and raping her while she’s incapacitated. Plus, we don’t know whether she was given drugs in top of the alcohol.

You seem really determined to defend the alleged attacker here without extending that same courtesy to the alleged victim