Ben Maher: Showjumper sued for £700,000 in 'secret profits' case

[Lord_Helpus]

I was taken for a ride in the 1970 (which is why I went to law school). I stood in the aisle and asked my trainer if there was any room for negotiating the price since it seemed to be high for an 11 year old horse. She looked me right in the eye and said “No, the price is firm”
So I wired money to my trainers, who then sent the purchase price to the seller.
Several months later I ran into a friend who said that she had missed out on the horse by one day; she and her trainer had a flight out the morning after I bought him.
Since I knew she had been looking for a long time, and that she had $20k to spend, I (in total innocence) asked her why she would be looking at s $50k horse when her budget was $20k. That was when she told me that the asking price was $20k for the horse. Yes, I had paid $50k PLUS paying for “my” vet to fly out to Minnesota to vet the horse AND paid for his girlfriend to accompany him to “hold the x-rays”.
When I found this out, I immediately left the trainer and went into training with some hontest people (Joe and Conrad). I certainoly thought of sueing, but I was a little fish and my trainer was a big one. And “these things happen”.

Yes, I had “sucker” written across my forehead. As do many others in the horse show world. Easiy enough to say that you would never buy a horse unless you had a contract yadda. yadda. Well that is not haw the AAA circuit works (although it certainly should.)
In the top of the market, horses are not interchangable. If you pass up one, it might not be easy to find another top horse. You are pretty much at your trainer’s mercy — and the way you have gotten into this hole is that you have bought into this sh$t from the beginning. Having the most expensive horse is something to be proud of. Finding the best deal will not win classes at WEF.

[netg]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7295689]
No, I would not be comfortable doing any of the things you describe. That isn’t my point. My point is that being naive is not a crime, and no one should ever be condemned for being taken advantage of under any circumstances, ever. Just because I might know when to start feeling as though things aren’t quite right and have the ability to pull back and ask questions doesn’t mean that everyone on the planet should know to do that. In my mind there is no reason to ever blame in any way the person who is taken advantage of in any given situation, whether that person is rich or poor, learning disabled or genius, or whatever. The person who is taking advantage of someone is the one who is wrong. Always.[/QUOTE]

Very good point. Worth repeating.

[Tiramit]

With some exceptions, the majority of horse people I’ve met in my lifetime haven’t been the best businessmen/women. In fact, a good percentage have skewed from mediocre to downright failures at business. Good at riding, good at training, lousy at balancing the books.

In some cases the situations have been so desperate that, despite the shiny facade and bravado, skimming, cheating, and bilking all too gullible clients with blinders over their eyes was the way they “got by” and maintained that shiny facade. It’s disgusting to watch. Worse yet are the gullible people who defend these charlatans, sometimes rabidly.

Again, there are some exceptional businessmen/women in the horse world and this isn’t meant to be a broad-brush statement, but based on my own experience I would never blindly hand over money to anyone, much less someone whose chief skills have nothing to do with business management. To me, it’s common sense to at least read through and confirm the transactions details ahead of time. It’s my money, therefore I’m the one with the risk and potential loss, not the trainer / rider.

Just because someone can win big classes on horseback doesn’t mean they can automatically be successful at business or turn a profit legitimately. The negative cloud around the term, “horse trader”, exists for a reason.

It’ll be interesting to see how this case turns out. If it’s true, good for the owners and I sincerely hope they win.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Tiramit;7295851]
With some exceptions, the majority of horse people I’ve met in my lifetime haven’t been the best businessmen/women. In fact, a good percentage have skewed from mediocre to downright failures at business. Good at riding, good at training, lousy at balancing the books.

In some cases the situations have been so desperate that, despite the shiny facade and bravado, skimming, cheating, and bilking all too gullible clients with blinders over their eyes was the way they “got by” and maintained that shiny facade. It’s disgusting to watch. Worse yet are the gullible people who defend these charlatans, sometimes rabidly. [/QUOTE]

I have always thought that a huge service that USEF could provide would be to develop some ethics training and business training courses/mentorship for equine professionals, who often have not attended college or really ever been part of a professionally run, ethical organization. It’s not a surprise that they don’t know how.

[findeight]

USHJA has been trying to get something like this off the ground for the Hunter Jumper crowd and does offer some basic contract information and a mentor program. It leaves something to be desired but it’s a start.

USEF itself is an umbrella organization over multiple disciplines acting as a “club” with no legal jurisdiction or authority over non members or for events off the rated show ground on show days. It is what it is, which is pretty limited and not what some think it is. FEI is only slightly more powerful but still without any legal rights or jurisdiction outside their sandbox.

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=poltroon;7295929]
I have always thought that a huge service that USEF could provide would be to develop some ethics training and business training courses/mentorship for equine professionals, who often have not attended college or really ever been part of a professionally run, ethical organization. It’s not a surprise that they don’t know how.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but who would teach these courses?

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=poltroon;7295929]
I have always thought that a huge service that USEF could provide would be to develop some ethics training and business training courses/mentorship for equine professionals, who often have not attended college or really ever been part of a professionally run, ethical organization. It’s not a surprise that they don’t know how.[/QUOTE]

Business classes could be very helpful, but ethics? People should have already learned from a young age that lying and cheating people out of their hard earned $$$ is not nice!

[kenyarider]

Funny Lord Helpus but I had a similar experience in 1980. I agreed to have a trainer sell my horse and then after the fact was informed that I had to pay both commissions. I did so, but to this day, I can get angry about it. I too went to law school. Funny world. To this day, I write the check to the seller and pay my trainer separately. I admit I am not writing $750000 checks however!

[kenyarider]

Ethics is not the same as morality and in fact, one can apply morality to an ethical question and arrive at the wrong answer. Agency law is tricky and anyone who acts as an agent (which is what trainers are doing when they buy and sell for clients) should get some education as to the responsibilities. But just like leasing and buying and selling horses, people insist on doing it based on oral agreements and then they are mad at each other. I do wish the USHJA trainer certification could be made a requirement for showing at least at the USEF recognized shows. After all you have to pay for drugs and membership fees to show and you have to provide proof of health, why not some evidence that your trainer has a clue. But that’s just my opinion.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7296332]
Business classes could be very helpful, but ethics? People should have already learned from a young age that lying and cheating people out of their hard earned $$$ is not nice![/QUOTE]

Ethics can certainly be taught. I work in pharmaceutical manufacturing, where everything must be documented per procedure. Nothing can be erased, and everything that is done has to be documented, initialed, and dated. Jobs can be lost for not following correct procedures.

When I was a graduate student in academia, the exact opposite was accepted as the norm. Your experiment didn’t work? No problem, just keep changing the protocol until it works, and once it does, repeat it 3 times and we’ll publish the results. The failures never happened.

Neither one of these scenarios is wrong; they are just separate situations where the definition of what is ethical is different.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7296403]
Ethics can certainly be taught. I work in pharmaceutical manufacturing, where everything must be documented per procedure. Nothing can be erased, and everything that is done has to be documented, initialed, and dated. Jobs can be lost for not following correct procedures.

When I was a graduate student in academia, the exact opposite was accepted as the norm. Your experiment didn’t work? No problem, just keep changing the protocol until it works, and once it does, repeat it 3 times and we’ll publish the results. The failures never happened.

Neither one of these scenarios is wrong; they are just separate situations where the definition of what is ethical is different.[/QUOTE]

I’m not talking about that type of ethics. I’m willing to bet I know just as much as you do or more about pharmaceutical manufacturing…

I’m talking about basic stuff like don’t lie and cheat.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7296425]
I’m not talking about that type of ethics. I’m willing to bet I know just as much as you do or more about pharmaceutical manufacturing…

I’m talking about basic stuff like don’t lie and cheat.[/QUOTE]

You are talking about morals, not ethics. They are not the same thing.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7296448]
You are talking about morals, not ethics. They are not the same thing.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know that.

I don’t think we necessarily need an ethics class. We need to remind the professionals of what they should have learned from their parents when they were kids. Get them to stop lying and cheating and that will solve a good deal of the problems in the equine industry.

[NCRider]

Particularly at this level, I don’t think these situations are ever as black and white as either party makes it appear once the relationship has soured and the mud has started slinging, particularly when nothing is ever in writing. I’ll admit it doesn’t look good on its face but just because a lot of trainers are crooks doesn’t mean that an owner who acuses his trainer of being a crook is automatically telling the truth.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7296452]
Yes, I know that.

I don’t think we necessarily need an ethics class. We need to remind the professionals of what they should have learned from their parents when they were kids. Get them to stop lying and cheating and that will solve a good deal of the problems in the equine industry.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, when you said:

“Business classes could be very helpful, but ethics? People should have already learned from a young age that lying and cheating people out of their hard earned $$$ is not nice!”

I thought you were confused about the fact that ethics and morals are not the same thing.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Renn_aissance]

Reading his response as reported on COTH today, it sounds like he is saying “I pretty much stole money from my biggest supporters, but they owed me money, so it’s all out in the wash.” If that’s actually what he is saying, that’s disgusting.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7296425]
I’m not talking about that type of ethics. I’m willing to bet I know just as much as you do or more about pharmaceutical manufacturing…

I’m talking about basic stuff like don’t lie and cheat.[/QUOTE]

No other profession takes for granted that you can apply the lessons you learned in kindergarten to what can be complicated business situations with other people’s money accurately and correctly. In the horse industry, the situation is complicated by the fact that many of our young professionals have only had a single mentor, someone who may not have particularly upstanding ethics. When your mentor teaches you that this is how things are done, you may not even realize it is lying or cheating.

To be a realtor, for example, you must not only take a class on agency ethics; you must retake it every few years as a refresher. The same is true in many other professions.

[skydy]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/ushja-rule-change-proposals-seek-close-loopholes

It seems that there is an attempt to clean things up a bit in the U.S.

Who knows if it will be effective, but I am happy to see some acknowledgement that a problem exists.

LordHelpus I feel for you.

My first disillusionment with the horse “business” was when the trainer that I worked for and respected (professionally) told me, with NO embarrassment whatsoever, exactly what she had paid for the horse we had hauled to her friend (another trainer) to show to his client and what the client paid for the horse and how much profit each trainer had made.

The client who was “in banking” was trusting the professional that they had hired and was none the wiser. The horse did suit the clients daughter but that was the only positive note.

I am not, and was not then, an expert in sales or business matters but I did not just fall off the turnip truck . I know that it was dishonest and WRONG.

We can argue semantics all we’d like, but really most of us do know right from wrong.

[2bayboys]

If a trainer or trainers is pocketing of sum of money from the sale of a horse and knows enough not to disclose that fact to either the buyer or seller, then the trainer knows that it is wrong.

Doesn’t matter if that falls under “ethics” or “morals” or “best practices”, if a trainer has to be taught not to lie to clients and cheat them out of money in the course of business, then what does that say about this sport?

[nutmeg]

Playing devil’s advocate here in response to skydy’s example: if trainer A did in fact own the horse that was then sold to trainer B’s client, there is no wrongdoing. Profit was made fair and square. It’s like the Antiques Roadshow: someone spotted value and capitalized on it. They put their own stake at risk. HOWEVER the charges against Ben Maher are that he cheated his co-owners out of their stake. I have no idea how this could happen. Those paragons of virtue that sold in a frenzy three-quarters of the hopefuls for the British Olympic team in 2011 surely could not have influenced Ben. Remember that? Talan, Sultan, Wonderboy and I forget who else. And then David Broome said ENOUGH and saved the day for Britain by fetching Sanctos. What a shark tank that was. You’d think their chef d’equipe was a Dutch horse dealer (oh wait… he is).
However this shakes out, my bottom line is… poor Jane Clark. Somewhere in Long Island a Canadian-American is laughing.