Ben Maher: Showjumper sued for £700,000 in 'secret profits' case

Nutmeg - somewhere in Wellington… :winkgrin:

There’s just not enough info to say who’s right or wrong or to condemn Ben at this point. I didn’t read his response as admitting guilt in any way, but then I didn’t read either article with it in my head already that he was guilty.

What bothers me though is the demand that he sell Tripple X. Doesn’t that seem rather petty to anyone else? Why does he have to sell the horse? Why not just include an arbitrary amount that they feel is half his value in the total suit?

I think the demand to sell Triple X makes sense because it resolves that issue quickly and maintains the value of the asset. If this drags out for years, good ole Triple might not be worth as much. Also, if it gets wrapped into damages, there may be a long wait to collect that money. Selling him provides the money immediately.
On this note of “how did they not know”. They know from what they were told and when the money showed up in their account, they know that what they were told was accurate. Most bills of sale state “for consideration paid” with no amount on there. Most owners care about what goes into their pocket after commissions and expenses. “Get me x for the horse” and what happens above that…well it is a giant commission for someone who could get more than x. This reminds me of the used car business a little bit. It is a mess.

[QUOTE=FreshAir;7297188]
I think the demand to sell Triple X makes sense because it resolves that issue quickly and maintains the value of the asset. If this drags out for years, good ole Triple might not be worth as much. Also, if it gets wrapped into damages, there may be a long wait to collect that money. Selling him provides the money immediately.
On this note of “how did they not know”. They know from what they were told and when the money showed up in their account, they know that what they were told was accurate. Most bills of sale state “for consideration paid” with no amount on there. Most owners care about what goes into their pocket after commissions and expenses. “Get me x for the horse” and what happens above that…well it is a giant commission for someone who could get more than x. This reminds me of the used car business a little bit. It is a mess.[/QUOTE]

They want to sell Tripple X now because the impending WEG will inflate the value. Get ready to see him on a Middle Eastern team.

The method FreshAir mentions “just get me $X and you can have the rest…” is how the culture of big commissions started. Selling that way is effective consignment and not agency. When you ask your trainer to serve as your agent and he instead acts as a consignee, you have a problem.
Big money owners may be able to afford those deals but for the average seller, they hire a trainer to sell to maximize THEIR results. The horse world is a small one and eventually people find out, like LH did. I’ve overheard ringside conversation about horse prices. Everyone talks and gossip about horse pricing is always “hot.”

[QUOTE=poltroon;7296788]
No other profession takes for granted that you can apply the lessons you learned in kindergarten to what can be complicated business situations with other people’s money accurately and correctly. In the horse industry, the situation is complicated by the fact that many of our young professionals have only had a single mentor, someone who may not have particularly upstanding ethics. When your mentor teaches you that this is how things are done, you may not even realize it is lying or cheating.

To be a realtor, for example, you must not only take a class on agency ethics; you must retake it every few years as a refresher. The same is true in many other professions.[/QUOTE]

Very true, but that’s why I don’t think the issue is moral-based. The problem isn’t KNOWING right from wrong. The issue, to me, is people getting in way over their heads and trying to figure out a way to maintain appearances and pay bills. The pressure to bring in income has to be immense, particularly to those on the edge.

It’s tough enough for the average small business owner (which is what these people are) to have the newest and flashiest store front (trucks, riding clothes, feed, matching stable “stuff”, trailers, travel money) without factoring in show horses and staff. Even if they had seed money, maintaining that level year over year requires significant money. Add to that a lack of business sense or education, then it’s not hard to understand how these situation crop up. My guess is many justify it by the awards they win or the boasting rights they offer clients. “Comes with the territory” or other such nonsense.

I have the cliche image of a desperate gambler owing money who’ll do almost anything to keep the balls in the air…

A while back I suggested a BBB tracking system for trainers that could help the clueless or poorly connected find an honest trainer who takes care of clients AND horses (specifically drugging). I still think it’s a good idea.

[QUOTE=nutmeg;7297128]
Playing devil’s advocate here in response to skydy’s example: if trainer A did in fact own the horse that was then sold to trainer B’s client, there is no wrongdoing. Profit was made fair and square. It’s like the Antiques Roadshow: someone spotted value and capitalized on it. They put their own stake at risk. HOWEVER the charges against Ben Maher are that he cheated his co-owners out of their stake. I have no idea how this could happen. Those paragons of virtue that sold in a frenzy three-quarters of the hopefuls for the British Olympic team in 2011 surely could not have influenced Ben. Remember that? Talan, Sultan, Wonderboy and I forget who else. And then David Broome said ENOUGH and saved the day for Britain by fetching Sanctos. What a shark tank that was. You’d think their chef d’equipe was a Dutch horse dealer (oh wait… he is).
However this shakes out, my bottom line is… poor Jane Clark. Somewhere in Long Island a Canadian-American is laughing.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately there was nothing “fair and square” about it. The client was told that the trainer paid much more for the horse than they really did and both trainers took a commission on the inflated amount as well as taking all of the money over the true cost of the horse.

sadly, the longer I’m in this business, the more I realize these methods are more the norm rather than the exception. I find this especially true in hunter jumper world but it seems to occur in all disciplines.

In this case with Ben, it’s owners and big time investors in the sport, but the same is true for riders and owners of entry level and mid level horses. In this case the amount is much higher, but it isn’t any more acceptable if the amount is “only” in the 4 or 5 digit range. This happens to parents buying the first show pony for a child and buying horses for middle age adult amateurs. If the riders give up all control to the trainer to “find them” a horse, you can be sure that in many cases there is the official price they pay commission on, which is quite often quite a ways from the real price the seller actually gets for the horse. In many cases the buyers write the cheque to the coach, which should be a HUGE red flag, but even in cases where the money goes straight to the seller, that seller may have been told to cough up additional commissions in order to get the horse sold.

I refuse to participate in these types of transactions…and it has cost me sales…. Oh well. Fortunately there are still people shopping on their own, or with a close friend or ethical coach that allow me to get my horses sold.

Its too bad they couldn’t clear this up privately, everyone involved and the sport just looks really bad.:sigh:

^^and probably turn a lot of other big owners away from the sport.

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7298645]
^^and probably turn a lot of other big owners away from the sport.[/QUOTE]

For good reason, unfortunately…

When prominent riders play fast and loose with prominent owners, you can be sure that owners/clients that are new to the horse industry are being taken for a ride, exponentially.

[QUOTE=Summit Springs Farm;7298624]
Its too bad they couldn’t clear this up privately, everyone involved and the sport just looks really bad.:sigh:[/QUOTE]

Keeping it private would only perpetuate the problem. By airing publicly, maybe there are other owners who are now scrutinizing their financial transactions and asking valid questions.

I REALLY don’t think you could say this about either the Phillips’ or Ben Maher.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7299004]
I REALLY don’t think you could say this about either the Phillips’ or Ben Maher.[/QUOTE]

It was meant to be a more a general statement tied back to the USEF / FEI business courses reference above. To my mention of trainers as small business owners, the definition is generally under $50 million in revenue per year / under 200 employees. Ben Maher’s horse business would have to be exceptional to pass that category.

If Ben is found guilty and his business (not personal wealth) is raking in more money than he can handle, then he is just a crook and scum rather than bad businessman. His motive was what, he thought he was above it all? Could be. Of course, there are wealthy people who get in over their heads as well… :wink:

By their own admission, the Phillips did enter into high dollar transactions blindly. If they hadn’t, the lawsuit wouldn’t exist because they could NOT have been taking for a ride. They did get a gold medal out of the deal and there are those who might call that not a bad trade and well worth $1.5 million.

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but I was just thinking…could this have been a currency conversion error that maybe someone just overlooked (be it purposely or accidentally)? Like…said horse was sold for 500,000 GBP (maybe plus expenses, etc) instead of USD, but the owners were told the horse sold for USD instead? B/c 500K GBP is like 815K USD or something.

[QUOTE=2bayboys;7298997]
Keeping it private would only perpetuate the problem. By airing publicly, maybe there are other owners who are now scrutinizing their financial transactions and asking valid questions.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. We need to get some light on our sports dirty little secrets to get them cleaned up.

Did the buyers have a trainer who shared in the “excessive profits?”
I’m pretty sure that this was before they rode with Lauren Hough or Missy Clark.
This is an issue at the on going USHJA convention. I think it’s a very positive step to have transparency in horse sales. As an industry and sport, we are shooting ourselves in the foot by allowing participants to get fleeced by unscrupulous trainers, and then leave the sport altogether.

[QUOTE=PoopPicker;7300778]
Did the buyers have a trainer who shared in the “excessive profits?”
I’m pretty sure that this was before they rode with Lauren Hough or Missy Clark.
This is an issue at the on going USHJA convention. I think it’s a very positive step to have transparency in horse sales. As an industry and sport, we are shooting ourselves in the foot by allowing participants to get fleeced by unscrupulous trainers, and then leave the sport altogether.[/QUOTE]

This was after Missy and Before Lauren.

Peter Pletcher was the agent. they paid 1mm. they will happily tell you that and will be witness number one for the Phillips.

So who were the trainers in the deal besides PP?

How hard was it for Phillips/Maher to put things down on paper? :rolleyes: I don’t understand how a family could conduct high-dollar transactions without a paper trail. And I would have hoped Maher (or any rider) would have known to cover his ass(ets) when working for someone other than himself!

While I agree its pretty sad if true, I also think that really, both parties should have known better to have things in writing!! If Ben felt he wasn’t being paid enough, then he should be able to prove it right? :yes: