Benchmark Sporthorses?

[awaywego]

All about the money. 12 years ago I bought a OTTB for $500, no PPE (lol). It seems most OTTB’s fresh off the track start at $5k+ now. I am certainly not making 10x what I made 12 years ago, so my risk calculation at $5k is a whole lot different than it was on $500.

Considering the expense of an extensive PPE, these potential buyers are far from tire kickers, and in my opinion should be treated with courtesy as you would any serious buyer. I don’t think people are spending $3k on a PPE and then deciding against a horse without good reason - and “good reason” can be a very subjective term.

[dmveventer]

@vxf111

Buying a made show horse with iffy films is a completely different proposition than buying a dime a dozen young TB off the track with those same films.

This is the biggest thing to me - there are just so many OTTBs on the market right now, and plenty of them don’t have major red flags on their PPEs. Taking a chance on a questionable one just doesn’t make sense for most buyers when there are so many other options. My OTTB had pristine x-rays, and I imaged a lot during my PPE. I couldn’t believe the vet’s report when they told me there were absolutely no concerns. Those horses may be harder to find but for a buyer that’s willing to be a little patient it’s definitely possible to find a promising young horse that isn’t as obviously risky as some of the ones these sellers get so defensive about. And with how expensive it is to keep horses these days that patience is really worth it for most buyers.

[beowulf]

@vxf111

The minute I sign on the dotted line I buy ALL THE RISK, and with the PPE showing the KS it’s going to be excluded from insurance.

I thought your whole post was lovely. I wanted to share something I learned about KS and coverage - it’s not just the back. Insurance companies will argue other issues (hocks, SI, stifles, suspensories) are caused by the KS and will try not to pay out. Something to consider for those not in the know.

[vxf111]

@beowulf

I thought your whole post was lovely. I wanted to share something I learned about KS and coverage - it’s not just the back. Insurance companies will argue other issues (hocks, SI, stifles, suspensories) are caused by the KS and will try not to pay out. Something to consider for those not in the know.

Ugh!

[SweetestDownfall]

My kissing spine horse has been such an exhausting/expensive journey. It would be a deal breaker if I ever purchase another horse, for sure.

[vxf111]

@Beam_Me_Up

I’d understand this rant more from trainers - if you feel your students are missing out on great matches by being too picky about various things.

Totally agree.

If my trainer (who is supposed to be acting on my behalf and who will, to some extent, have to deal with the consequences of my choices) feels I am being too risk adverse-- that is a little bit different. Yes, the trainer has a financial stake in the purchase if she’s getting a commission… but she also has a stake in seeing me happy and successful with a sound horse I can ride and enjoy.

The seller isn’t acting on my behalf. The seller is acting on her own behalf. So for a seller to grouse that I’m missing out by being risk averse and to pretend as though it’s really frustration for ME and not self-interested just doesn’t fly.

[luvmyhackney]

@awaywego

All about the money. 12 years ago I bought a OTTB for $500, no PPE (lol). It seems most OTTB’s fresh off the track start at $5k+ now.

They don’t. I can buy them all day long for free-2500.00 off the track. I see them advertised in my area all the time and even some from resellers local for less that 4k.

I’m sure there are some really nice ones that do cost 5k straight off the track, but they aren’t the normal.

I watch the market close cause I’m horse shopping again in April.

[Simkie]

@vxf111

I know it’s hard to lose a sale, but the lack of empathy really gets me. Unless you’re going to put your money where your mouth is and indemnify my risk, you don’t get to tell me how much risk is or is not unreasonable for me to take.

So well put. I see lots of sellers complain about buyers about PPEs, complain about buyers being hyper specific on their wants, complain about buyers not asking (what the sellers think are…) the “right” questions.

If I’m buying a horse, I’m going to keep it for like 20 years. Is it wrong to want something specific? To want to screen for things that could be expensive to treat?

I bought a little filly this summer, and my list of wants was really pretty short. Very basic PPE. I’m pretty comfortable with a lot. I try to be an easy buyer. But I wanted no smaller than a certain height, and was up front about that. Didn’t want to waste anyone’s time if the horse was small. The seller, who is overall pretty well regarded as far as I can tell, went so far as sending a picture of the stick.

Horse walks off the trailer a full two inches shorter.

And what I don’t get about that is…did she not think I’d notice? Doesn’t she want people to be excited about their new horse in that moment, rather than wondering wtf?

And yeah, my fault for buying sight unseen, but in all my buying sight unseen before, I’ve never had one that was just straight up misrepresented like that. Really surprised me.

[Tha_Ridge]

@Railbird

@Tha_Ridge I believe did this for a vetting issue she was very certain would not be a problem. Basically if the specific issue caused a soundness problem within however many years, she would refund their money less a prorated lease fee, I think it was? Tagging her.

Indeed. It was a risk I was willing to take and probably a questionable clause to enforce (on either end), but I also operate much like Jess in that, if a horse I’ve sold has an issue down the road, I’ll figure out a way to make it right in some form. In the case of this particular horse, it was a bone chip in the pastern of a young horse that received a positive sign-off by a top sport horse vet.

I also sold one with screw in the knee and offered to do similar clause, but then that horse “passed” the PPE with SUCH flying colors compared to the SEVEN (7!) previous horses that buyer had vetted that they didn’t even want or need it.

[vxf111]

@Simkie

I bought a little filly this summer, and my list of wants was really pretty short. Very basic PPE. I’m pretty comfortable with a lot. I try to be an easy buyer. But I wanted no smaller than a certain height, and was up front about that. Didn’t want to waste anyone’s time if the horse was small. The seller, who is overall pretty well regarded as far as I can tell, went so far as sending a picture of the stick.

Horse walks off the trailer a full two inches shorter.

That sucks. Either the seller is so utterly incompetent that she can’t measure or read numbers or she just figured once you saw the horse you’d like her enough to keep her. What an idiotic thing to do. I hope in every other way the horse was what you wanted and worked out in the end.

[beowulf]

This!’ But Simkie — do we get photos (maybe another thread?) I had no idea you got a new horse. I’m sorry she was misrepresented, but I hope she’s perfect in every other way.

[Simkie]

@vxf111

That sucks. Either the seller is so utterly incompetent that she can’t measure or read numbers or she just figured once you saw the horse you’d like her enough to keep her. What an idiotic thing to do. I hope in every other way the horse was what you wanted and worked out in the end.

Thank you! She is quite a sweetheart.

I get the impression the seller knows exactly how to measure, but feels height is unimportant. She regularly shares stuff like this post. (To be clear, that’s not the seller, just a post about height that was shared by a whole lotta people!) And the horse is young, she may still grow some.

But I sure wish I had been given the opportunity to decide if I wanted to roll those dice, instead of that decision being made for me! If the seller had been honest, I may have still moved forward. Maybe not. But buying a horse that’s the height I want is a hell of a lot more of a sure thing than hoping they still have a few inches in them.

There just seems to be this trend of sellers disregarding or ranting about what’s important to buyers? And I guess maybe that’s always been the case, but social media is such a wide reaching platform compared to complaining to a few close friends. If our demands around screening for lameness or spinal abnormalities, or desires on height or other physical features, or anything else, are really that onerous, sellers could, idk, limit PPE availability, not allow them at all, offer only a general height assessment, etc, etc. Maybe that would help out everyone by just setting expectations up front. Sellers get the type of buyer they want, and buyers who find those things important can move on to sellers who do, too.

@beowulf I don’t want to share anything identifying publicly (trying to keep this vague as it is, lol) but I’ll send you a PM

[hb]

I get so sick of those posts. I am TOO DAMN BIG for a 15.3 hand horse. That’s just a simple fact.

And I’m going to get a PPE and x-rays and might not buy the horse because of it. Every horse I’ve bought had some finding or another, and I’ve passed on a few that had more serious findings. But I’m not going to absolutely ignore a PPE just because the seller thinks I’m being too picky. I’m the one that’s going to be paying for upkeep on the horse probably until it dies and I get to choose what issues I’m comfortable with and what I’m not.

I passed on a horse a few years back that had kissing spine. The horse did well at 2’ - 2’6" but was refusing when the owner tried to go higher. People we know in common were telling me it was a nice horse and the problem was the current owner wasn’t a very experienced rider, which was true, but I still passed. It ended up being sold to a small girl who had a few years of fun at the lower levels. Probably would not have gone as well for me, a larger adult who wanted to get to 3’.

Jessica has some nice horses and I’ve been interested in a couple, but her Facebook rants about people not buying based on vettings really turn me off.

[McGurk]

I am not at all put off by the seller’s rant on her personal, not business, FB page.

I don’t know the seller, but I cruised through her web site and she has very nice horses for very reasonable prices. The photos and video are also very well done. She clearly has great contacts with breeders and trainers to source nice horses; and the knowledge of pedigrees to pick decent sporthorse prospects.

She (or whoever is riding in the videos) ain’t half bad as a rider either.

If I were in the market, I would absolutely look at stuff she has for sale, knowing I would have to move quickly as her business model doesn’t include keeping horses around for long periods of time. I’d do so knowing that there is a certain element of risk buying one of these horses rather than something at a local barn, but the prices certainly reflect that.

Her business model isn’t for everybody, if I had an ammy amateur client looking, I would want them to be able to ride the horse multiple times to evaluate the fit.

As far as the post about vetting; I think that’s more about the decline of horsemanship and horse knowledge among the buying public. It used to be that most people would understand old splints or mild arthritis in a horse with race record was a reasonable finding, and not a reason to pass on a horse that presented sound. No horse is going to have NO reservations on the vet report; but that’s what buyers seem to want.

[McGurk]

@Simkie,

The height thing is real. I used to joke that my stick was a precious artifact, because apparently it was the only one within 200 miles.

I was looking for a horse for a client who was a big, tall man - 6’ 4"+, 225# and who rode hard. I made that clear when looking, lots of sellers told me they had a horse that was big enough, I would arrive and could tell from the truck that the horse wasn’t and didn’t measure what they said it would, and they’re be some backpedaling about they were estimating the height. I can’t tell you how much time and gasoline I wasted.

I finally started taking his saddle with me to look at horses; I would put it on a horse said to be 17H and full bodied, pull down the stirrup, and most of the time, the stirrup would hit the horse in the forearm below the elbow. Next!

Don’t even get me started on ponies.

[Mander]

@McGurk

The height thing is real. I used to joke that my stick was a precious artifact, because apparently it was the only one within 200 miles.

LOL

I know someone who just bought a horse and kept telling everyone “oh she’s 17hh!!”. Interestingly, my (actually) 17hh horse stands about a full 4 inches taller than hers

I really don’t understand the whole “horse height as a bragging point” thing or people who seem to round heights rather liberally as though it changes reality lol. Sometimes I tell people who are clearly delusional about their horse’s height that mine is only 16.3 just to take the wind out of their sails a bit.

[Simkie]

I felt so crazy until I was able to find my stick and really measure my little filly I’m 16 hands at the eyeballs, so really thought she was smaller than expected but the seller was just so specific about the height!

Geez, there are all sorts of reasons for wanting all sorts of specific qualities in a horse. The buyer is allowed to want what they want. Sellers complaining about it, or totally disregarding that and straight up misrepresenting some important element is bizarre. Sell the horse you’ve got!

[Amy3996]

I have to laugh about the height thing. When I was shopping in November 2020, I was looking for 16hh. Didn’t need a giant since I’m barely 5’5” when I stand up really straight, but my personal preference is larger horses. My then coming 6yo TB was just a smidge over 16hh when I bought him. Figured he might still have a little growing to do, but didn’t bargain on him sticking at a solid 16.3hh last week.

I personally wouldn’t buy from Jess because my preference is to try something at least a couple of times before I make the purchase commitment, and that’s not her business model. Fair. Her rider in most of the videos is Stacey… I can’t remember her last name off the top of my head but she owns Hound Run Farm and has a pretty robust FB presence herself. She and Jess seem to work hand in hand and Stacey has some really lovely horses too. Her model seems to involve holding on to them a little longer, putting a few more off-track miles (first jump schools, etc.) on them. Seems like she might be more my speed if or when I find myself in the market again.

[McGurk]

Oh, I agree. I am only 5’ 7", but I am a large person, and I foxhunt. I am not comfortable on anything less than 16H, and I need 16H and sturdy. You could argue I’d be fine on a smaller horse, but I wouldn’t care. I know what’s comfortable for me, and that’s it.

As far as Benchmark’s comments, though, I get her frustration. Some people just want the bigger horses for whatever reason. So if she’s trying to steer a client to the mellower, easier to restart 16H horse, but they won’t consider it and want the spicier, more difficult 17H, just because it’s bigger. She states that she tries to make good matches for her buyers, and sometimes, buyers are there own worst enemy.

But piggybacking on someone else’s point, above, bottom line is, you’re in sales. Your job is to give the customer what they want. If you can’t persuade them to consider the more suitable horse, sell them the one they want.

[trubandloki]

@McGurk

But piggybacking on someone else’s point, above, bottom line is, you’re in sales. Your job is to give the customer what they want. If you can’t persuade them to consider the more suitable horse, sell them the one they want.

This can turn around and bite the seller in the end.

Buyer buys the not suitable horse, things go sideways, lots of badmouthing of seller for selling bad horses happens.