I hope this is the correct video. I am on my phone at the moment instead of a computer. It should be a video of a thoroughbred in a 50 acre paddock being called to come and get his fly veil on. http://s16.photobucket.com/user/SuzieQ_/media/Andy/DSCF4767.mp4.html
When I bought this horse I was told that he did not like people and you would have to walk to the bottom of his paddock to get him from between the trees.
After his bout in a full time training situation in a dressage barn that made him crazy, Fella went from the horse who put his head over the gate for me to slip on a halter, to a walk-away guy. He didn’t run, the fastest he would move would be a trot, but he did not want to be caught.
Since we’d worked with CT with him before (blanketing) he already appreciated the high value of dinner mints (those little powder mints) so this is what I used.
I would walk him down. Not being able to catch him was not viable so I would not give up on catching him. If he moved away I made him keep moving. Then I’d stop, and if he stopped I approached him, but if he moved, I kept him moving.
When he finally would give up and let me catch him I gave him his high value mint. Then walked away, and tried again. And if he stood, I gave him his high value mints and walked away, but if he moved, I kept him moving.
I don’t have back my horse face over the gate, but he doesn’t walk away now. He’ll stand and I’ll approach him, rub him, pet him, give him a mint, put on his halter, give him a mint, and lead him out of the field.
I adapted recall training from dogs. I used to have sighthounds (Rhodesian Ridgebacks) with ridiculously good off leash recall. The trick was to reward the return and then let them go. That was tough, but it worked.
Personally I would not withhold food or water from the horse because that becomes a war and I am not interested in putting that kind of pressure on a horse. Secondly it may be asking that horse to generalize too much -to make the connection with the water trough and being caught, or food and being caught. I like to keep things simple and immediate.
ETA: Regarding the use of treats
I use the little dinner mints because they are a little drop of exquisite goodness that doesn’t last very long so they are not in themselves distracting.
I only use those dinner mints for training. He never sees them otherwise.
I don’t encourage mugging. He’s got some CT so he’ll touch my hand trying to “get the click”. That’s fine, but I will ignore pushiness -mugging for the treat.
I never never ever give treats to the other horses in the field with him. I think that would put me at risk for getting mugged by all the horses. So they never get any reinforcement from me in that way.
Paula
Another vote for ‘chasing’, then rewarding with a treat.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;7958271]
OP asked a question, I answered with what I’ve seen work…based on what I’ve read horses can tolerate some time without water with no ill effects. I’ve also seen well-intentioned people create dangerous annimals when they’re trying to be “nice.”
No need to diss…OP can read the responses and follow what she wants.[/QUOTE]
And your suggestions are incredibly dangerous. Days without water in a horse not accustomed to this can and will cause a horse to colic. This is why most people try to get their horses to consume water on long trailer rides and in the winter, because without them they can colic.
You can be not nice to your horses without treating them in a way that will make them get sick. For example, my suggestion of forcibly chasing the horse away from you when it tries to run so it’s uncomfortable and then rewarding it when it comes toward you is not going to hurt the horse. It’s a pressure release tactic that allows the horse to instantly understand action and reaction. It’s still not very nice.
By the way for those of you with pushy horses when it comes to treats, I trained mine that pushing my hand and getting nosy just gets you a smack. Turning your head away from me and lowering it to the ground – or even better, backing up a step – however, usually gets a treat. My horse isn’t pushy.
my horse has to back up on a finger wave before he gets a treat.
catching a horse through pressure and release is no different from any other training using that method. you make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.
i have used treats and not used treats. treats seem to make no difference at all in training a horse to come.
here’s what i do:
before i ever enter the pasture i stand quietly with a grounded, upright, relaxed, and open posture and wait for my horse to make eye contact.
if my horse ignores me, i then begin walking toward him. if he continues to ignore me, i keep approaching. but if he picks up his head and gives me two eyes, i stop and turn my back to him. that’s the release for doing the right thing.
after a moment or two, i continue approaching the horse. if he ignores me, i keep on coming. if he gives me two eyes, i stop and turn away. if he moves away from me, i start swinging my lead rope in the air overhead like a propeller, increasing the pressure. the minute my horse turns back to me and gives me two eyes, i release all pressure and turn away.
this teaches the horse that he can stop the pressure by giving me his full attention. it puts him in control of how much pressure he gets.
sometimes, the other horses in his pasture are unhappy that i’m going to take my horse–their buddy–away, and they incite him to run away. if that happens, i just keep on walking towards him, swinging the rope. very quickly he learns that if he just stops and turns toward me, he can make me stop my advance and release all pressure. he’s in charge!
very quickly the horses get tired of having this pressure put on them and stop running away. the other horses know you are after your horse, and they start getting out of the way so you can get your horse and leave them all alone.
when i get to the point that i am close to the horse, and he is giving me two eyes, i stop and resume the relaxed, grounded, open, upright posture. this posture projects confidence, leadership, and also draws the horse in. at this point the horse may take a few steps towards me. if he does, i turn away, to draw him in further.
if he just stands there, i use my sense of feel to tell when i can approach, doing minute pressure, release, pressure, release–all with body language.
when the horse shows that he welcomes my approach, i reach out a hand and avert my eyes and let him touch my hand with his nose. this is his invitation to come in and rub him on the withers. but i turn away, as a reward for the touch.
i might put out my hand for him to touch, or pet his forehead, or rub his withers several times, each time quickly turning away afterward, as a reward for the contact. in this approach/retreat he is being taught that i won’t hurt him and my approach is comforting and safe. i want him to feel i am the most comforting thing in his life.
when i sense that he is relaxed and comfortable, i put on the halter, letting him put his nose into it himself. usually at this point he welcomes the halter. he wants time with me.
it’s also very important that in all your contacts with your horse that you establish your leadership: don’t let him move your feet. don’t let him crowd you or mug you for treats. don’t let him move when he’s supposed to stand quietly. show him that you are in charge of his movements.
on the walk out of the pasture, he should maintain the same distance between you no matter how fast or slow you walk. when your feet stop his feet should stop. when you step backwards he should step backwards. when you step forward he should step forward. if his attention isn’t on you, give him a task to do: circles or hq yields or fq yields, backing up.
if you establish leadership, and your horse finds comfort and safety with you, and you have fun together, and you are fair in how you teach and treat him, he will want to be with you when you come to the pasture and will leave the other horses to be with you. no treats necessary.
if he runs away or ignores you, he’s only reflecting back to you what you are bringing to the partnership. not much, as far as he is concerned.
I teach leading different to that.
A beginner will lead a horse with it moving when they move their feet. They will then walk to somewhere to tie and then walk away and get upset when the horse that has been following their feet all morning, goes to follow their feet and then get into trouble for following instead, which causes an upset horse.
Instead my horses walk forward from a click, halt when I say halt and go back when I put a thumb on their chest and say back. There should always be 2 signals at the same time for back, so they are also taught to back with the word back and a tug on the tail for backing out of a float and back when I say Back and wave my finger from side to side. I can do this when I am on a horse to back another horse away from a gate so as I can open it and go through it on my horse.
Lunging is then easy as you click, the horse walks forward and you step back and you are in the right place to lunge.
It is easy to put one horse through a gate as you click and the horse walks through it without you. The word halt stops them on the other side and the horse on this side, so you can shut the gate in peace.
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7958204]
When he walks away from you, CHASE HIM. With a lead rope or a lunge whip. Just enough to make him trot. Teach him that NOT letting you catch him is unpleasant. Do it for as long as it takes (which probably won’t be long).
When he finally comes to you, give him a treat and put his halter on. Make running away from you hard work and he won’t do it anymore. Reverse psychology 101 ;)[/QUOTE]
Worked for Mom’s pony. Took about 10 min tops. Lazy pony.
[QUOTE=dungrulla;7958834]
And your suggestions are incredibly dangerous. Days without water in a horse not accustomed to this can and will cause a horse to colic. This is why most people try to get their horses to consume water on long trailer rides and in the winter, because without them they can colic.
…[/QUOTE]
The OP can make up her own mind…dangerous is in the mind of the beholder. MY SAFETY is more important than that of any horse.
Read for comprehension…The horse is offered access to water many times a day (like every 2 hrs)…he just needs to allow me to touch him and halter him before he takes a drink. In some cases it takes a day or two for the horse to make the decision. This is in temprate/cool northern latitudes, NOT in tropical Australia.
The motivator in this case is access to water…the horse has to make up its own mind that getting touched/haltered is worth while as the price to get a drink.
This is no different than the posts that suggest chasing a horse around until it gets too tired/exhausted to run anymore and allows you to catch it.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;7959128]
The motivator in this case is access to water…the horse has to make up its own mind that getting touched/haltered is worth while as the price to get a drink.
This is no different than the posts that suggest chasing a horse around until it gets too tired/exhausted to run anymore and allows you to catch it.[/QUOTE]
Way different.
Horses don’t have the reasoning capabilities to know that not drinking could have serious health consequences.
I’ve successfully used the “chase” method to catch horses (detailed on other COTH threads). It does not involve chasing the horse around until it’s exhausted and allows itself to be caught, but does involve application of “horse psychology” so the horse understands what you want and is rewarded for complying. It works.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;7959128]
The OP can make up her own mind…dangerous is in the mind of the beholder. MY SAFETY is more important than that of any horse.
Read for comprehension…The horse is offered access to water many times a day (like every 2 hrs)…he just needs to allow me to touch him and halter him before he takes a drink. In some cases it takes a day or two for the horse to make the decision. This is in temprate/cool northern latitudes, NOT in tropical Australia.
The motivator in this case is access to water…the horse has to make up its own mind that getting touched/haltered is worth while as the price to get a drink.
This is no different than the posts that suggest chasing a horse around until it gets too tired/exhausted to run anymore and allows you to catch it.[/QUOTE]
You aren’t supposed to chase the horse until it’s exhausted. If you have to do this you’re doing it wrong.
Two days without water can hurt a horse and the horse is unable to conceptualize that not letting you touch it could make it die from lack of water.
Horses do not reason.
A showjumping horse can die in a paddock with no water with a fence lower than he jumps in competition.
A horse will die in a stable if a hay bale is out of reach above without working out he can knock it down with the rake in the corner.
A horse does not understand any discipline if it is not done immediately. Not feeding 3 hours later - they do not understand why.
Facing up takes 10 minutes usually in a yard. The horse in the video I posted above actually took less than a second but he was extremely smart.
Not days, minutes.
I just love reading all these super informative posts!
I have noticed that my girl is extremely food-motivated, so I have been using that. My goal for the past two days has been to get her to allow me to touch and rub her forehead over the fence before giving her her feed. She knows exactly where the feed is at (on the back of my truck) and is at the gate with her ears pricked when I pull down the driveway, but then doesn’t want me to touch her.
Yesterday she abswolutely refused to let me rub her forehead, but she lef me pet her neck without trying to move away.
Tonight, after about fifteen minutes, she let me rub her forehead without jerking away and I gave her her feed right afterwards, then walked on in the pasture and rubbed her neck and back, but didn’t try to get ahold of her halter, though I know she would have let me due to her being so into her feed that she wouldn’t have cared.
The big point is, she willingly let me rub her forehead tonight without jerking away! It may not be a huge step, but to me it is because she is a bit headshy.
I hope to get her like my other horses… I can just go out in the pasture and yell their names and they literally come running.
I think you’re showing very good instinct. Keep up the good work!
Paula
Britt one thing that worked for me by accident with a horse that didn’t want her ears to be touched.
She would let me put her bridle on as someone had taught her that, so I put on a bridle with those showjumping ears.
Those showshowjumping ears got her used to her ears being touched and after that she didn’t care if I touched them.
What are showjumping ears?
Several ways I approach this depending on the horse- whether it’s fear passed, PITA based, etc.
I’ll list them all. They might be repeats of other posters. If that’s the case, perhaps great minds think alike!
You can also find my thread about the donkey I’m training. That might be a useful read for you. I’ll find the link in a second.
First, the horse cannot be in a large pasture. If that is impossible, then, well, your work is going to be much harder.
Approach A) it is your idea for him to move away. Always. He moves, you ask him to move. You ask him to keep moving, but don’t run him down. There’s no point in yelling when you can whisper. We’re not reprimanding him. He doesn’t know. We like to think they can read our minds, but they can’t, and this is an ingrained behavior, so it’s normal to him, it’s the “right” thing to him. A walk, light trot, do not make him gallop around, just make him move for a bit.
Ask him to come back down. “Whoa, whoa” with an ascending tone. Speak softly.
Ask to catch him again.
Rinse. Wash. Repeat.
Approach B)
He moves away, you ask him to move, you turn, walk away, and invite him to follow with your body language (you know, the hindquarters drive while the shoulders stop, so if you can sweep your shoulders around and drive his hindquarters while you walk away, “inviting” him …) IF he follows, you reward with a treat. The goal is not to put a halter on him, the goal is to get him to respond to pressure.
Yes, treats. I’m not for treats all the time, you won’t always use them. Don’t use a grain bucket. Just a treat. A carrot or something.
I like B the best. It takes longer, but you need to make him think getting caught is his idea. Until then, he’s going to be a pill about it.
Horses will not understand long term consequences. Much like a very young child, or a dog. It’s like, similar to when you’re home but in a different room, your dog might whine and think you’ve left the house. They don’t have the capacity to compartmentalize long term consequences. All you’ll get is a cranky, sour horse.
Here’s what’s worked for me every time. It takes a lot of patience and time and endurance on your part, though.
I just doggedly follow the horse I want around the field until he/she gets tired of moving away from me and not being allowed to graze. I don’t ever chase them and try not to excite them enough that they run away. It just becomes a drag for them when you won’t leave them alone and eventually (after quite a bit of walking in some cases) they just give it up. Sometimes it takes two lessons like this. But after you’ve proven to them that you’re more dogged than they are, they just don’t bother.
I appreciate the distinction, SportArab. That’s why I describe what I do as “walking them down” not chasing. I don’t chase with a whip or anything like that. I just follow the heck out of them until they quit, then I reward and walk away and repeat the exercise.
Paula
Paula and SportArab, that’s exactly what works for us. Just keep walking after the horse until the horse stops and lets himself be caught. For the mustang, it took two hours of walking the first day, about half an hour the next day, and the day after, it was immediate. Every horse will be different, but you just have to be persistent and show no temper whatsoever. Just stalk them and be that perpetual presence until that breakthrough occurs. It’s also possible that some will never make that connection.
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