Bit suggestions: New USDF Baucher regulations

[leighbo009]

The left drawing is a baucher, the right being a gag/pelhum/curb bit.

On the baucher drawing, the reins apply pressure to the bit ring - then mouth. There is no way for the reins to be able to apply pressure to the poll with anymore pressure than the weight of the bit hanging on the cheekpieces.

The curb drawing shows the rotation point. This is why different length crub’s have different amount of poll pressures - they act on a lever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever#:~:text=Law%20of%20the%20lever,-See%20also%3A%20Mechanical&text=The%20lever%20is%20a%20movable,points%20closer%20to%20the%20pivot.

I tried to show the bit more as a simple lever. It’s not exactly the same, but maybe it will help to explain?

The baucher (and any other snaffle) do not have a lever arm, and therefore cannot make more poll pressure. There is poll pressure just the weight of the snaffle at the end of the cheekpieces, but that is not what we are talking about here.

A curb can and does exert a force on the poll based on the rotation about the mouthpiece.

[eightpondfarm]

Thank you very much for your effort and drawings, it was good of you to try.
That said, i’m still not seeing things from your point of view , but i will cease and desist. again, thanks for trying …

[ghst13]

Maybe a different way of describing it?

A baucher does not pivot at the connection point of the bit and the cheek piece because there is nothing holding the cheek piece in place. If you somehow glued the cheek piece to the horse’s face so it couldn’t move back towards the jowls and then pulled on the rein, that would create a pivot point. Because the cheek piece is actually free to move, pulling on the rein of a baucher effectively moves the entire bit and cheek piece in the direction the rider at the same time.

[K_VanOlst]

@eightpondfarm

That said, i’m still not seeing things from your point of view

It’s not her “point of view”. It’s PHYSICS.

[eightpondfarm]

@ghst13

Maybe a different way of describing it?

A baucher does not pivot at the connection point of the bit and the cheek piece because there is nothing holding the cheek piece in place. If you somehow glued the cheek piece to the horse’s face so it couldn’t move back towards the jowls and then pulled on the rein, that would create a pivot point. Because the cheek piece is actually free to move, pulling on the rein of a baucher effectively moves the entire bit and cheek piece in the direction the rider at the same time.

that makes sense to me. Thanks.

edit: so, another question. Would this bit allow more bit action on the mouth being as how it is a heavier combination of metal parts that are attached to the bridle? I think what i’m trying to ask is would there be more action?

[beowulf]

I find it helps to consider the mouthpiece, and the relation of the rein in connection to the mouthpiece. If the rein connects somewhere below the mouthpiece, it’s connected to a lever. It’s really the reins that matter, not the cheek-piece – although gag bits also employ cheekpiece leverage too.

The mouth piece is the pivot point in which the rest of the components rotate around. The mouthpiece doesn’t (hypothetically) move in fixed ring bits. A component fixed above the mouthpiece does not exert the same type of pressure as a component moving (not fixed, pulling, etc) below the mouthpiece - that component is a lever. Which is why you can have two bits that look similar like a Baucher and gag that behave very differently depending on the location of the lever arm in relation to the pivot point.

No, baucher bits do not cause leverage. It is such a pet peeve of mine to hear this idea espoused, and it is still very much the mindset of many professionals and riders out there, including judges.

I once got flack from a trainer for starting my filly in a baucher. She said something to the effect I would ruin the horse if I started her in a leverage bit.

[iberianfan]

I have to say I understand @eightpondfarm’s confusion. I,too, would think a pull back on the mouthpiece by the rein would cause the cheek ring to rotate forward or down, creating pressure. But now I think I understand better.

[ghst13]

I’m not sure I fully understand your question, but no, a baucher isn’t inherently heavier than other snaffle bits. That depends on the material, size of mouthpiece, etc.

I’ve been trying to think about how you could explore the action directly without having a baucher on hand. You could give this experiment a try but I’ve never done it myself so not sure how representative it would be. Put your normal loose ring/eggbutt/dee ring on your horse. Take some tape and tape the bit ring to the cheek piece so it can’t rotate. That should mimic the baucher connection. Pull back on the rein and see how the cheek piece and bit move.

[Janet]

@IPEsq

I know some bit makers say the Dee rings introduce a little bit of poll pressure but I don’t see how that’s possible. It’s not really different from an eggbutt just a little more stability to the cheek part depending on how big the Dee is.

No, and No.

There is no way a Dee bit can introduce poll pressure. In order to get leverage you need a lever and a fulcrum. There is neither in a Dee ring bit.

A Dee ring provides LESS stability than any other type of ring. It is simple physics.
The Dee is a semicircle, so the distance from the poll to the mouthpiece is the same regardless of the orientation of the mouth piece. There is nothing to encourage the mouthpiece to stay in one position.

With a full-cheek /Fulmer-with-keepers, or with a Baucher, the mouthpiece cannot rotate in the mouth at all. With a full-cheek/Fulmer-without keepers, or a loose ring, or an eggbutt, the mouthpiece can rotate to a certain extent, but, because gravity prefers a position with the longest distance from crownpiece to mouthpiece, there is a “preferred position” which only a very determined horse can change with its tongue.

Note that that “preferred position” is DIFFERENT between an eggbutt (top of the “egg” closest to the poll) and a loose ring or full-cheek/Fulmer-without-keepers (the part of the circle opposite the mouthpiece closest to the poll).

[Janet]

@eightpondfarm

i don’t see how. I think a D-ring snaffle is the closest to a full cheek.

The only thing a Dee ring has in common with full cheek is that they both have a vertical component that makes it harder to pull the bit “through” the mouth when trying to turn with a direct rein. This is generally only an issue with a very green horse.

[Janet]

@eightpondfarm

Would this bit allow more bit action on the mouth

I have no idea what you mean by “more bit action”, so can not answer you question.

[lazaret]

That’s not how leverage works, and is the same as any other bit if you pull hard enough. Think about how a lever works. The force you can exert via leverage increases as the distance from the pivot point increases. If you acted on a lever at the pivot point, it would exert no force at all.

[Bewildered]

I found this video a long time ago about the action of the Baucher. Maybe it will help with some confusion.

A Bit About Bits: More on Bouchers

[SillyHorse]

What, then, is the purpose of the Baucher? Maybe a better way to ask it is what would make one decide to use a Baucher?

[Janet]

@SillyHorse

What, then, is the purpose of the Baucher? Maybe a better way to ask it is what would make one decide to use a Baucher?

If you want to prevent the horse from rotating the mouthpiece.

[blob99]

@SillyHorse

What, then, is the purpose of the Baucher? Maybe a better way to ask it is what would make one decide to use a Baucher?

As you can see from the video and in the links posted above, the baucher does two things:

1. it is steadier than a loose ring (this is not a unique feature: eggbuts, d-rings, full cheeks all provide this)

2. It relieves poll pressure (this IS a unique feature and there is no other bit that has negative poll pressure when engaged)

I have a hyper sensitive horse, so the steadying part helps. He is also very sensitive in the poll area. So after a lot of trial and error we finally found the baucher for him and he was instantly quieter/less fussy. And pretty quickly it also helped make him a horse who seeks the bit. When he reaches forward for the bit and keeps the pivot engaged, it relieves poll pressure. So, this basically positively reinforces him reaching forward for the bit. It essentially does the opposite of a leverage bit in that way.

[IPEsq]

Firstly, I didn’t say I thought Dee rings introduced poll pressure, but some bit makers seem to. I just got a Bombers happy tongue Dee and this is what the tag on that bit said. I don’t agree.

Also don’t agree that the eggbutt and Dee hang differently off the cheek piece. See pics. The cheek piece is attached to the part of the round ring that is in the same vertical orientation. You don’t have attachment at the top of the egg without hooks on the ring. Dee has more lateral stability against the face. I didn’t say it had any different vertical or rotational stability compared to other fixed cheeks (without keepers or hooks).

[Janet]

@IPEsq

Dee has more lateral stability against the face. I didn’t say it had any different vertical or rotational stability compared to other fixed cheeks (without keepers or hooks).

OK, I mis-interpreted your post. I agree the Dee has more lateral stability

[Janet]

@blob99

It relieves poll pressure (this IS a unique feature and there is no other bit that has negative poll pressure when engaged)

I do not think that is a unique feature, The video only showed the experiment with a Baucher.
I would bet that if you did the same experiment with any other regular snaffle bit (not a gag, not a 3-ring) you would get the same negative pressure.

[BWP]

This is the original NS study. As you can see, other snaffles do not give poll relief.