Hinderella, I’ve been thinking seriously about a waterford. Did you buy the same size as a regular snaffle or did you go up a size?
I’ve seen the waterford three ring before, but I’ve never been sure what to make of it. Maybe its just too much going on in one bit? Would the leverage still be effective with such a flexible mouth piece? I’m not sure.
I like the Waterford idea. Happy mouth with a d-ring might be another option, since she’s coming in to the chest like this.
Getting behind the bit is difficult and may require some work at home, some basic dressage work on moving forward off the leg.
I realize it seems she’s already going too forward but being behind the bit, it’s hard to explain, maybe somebody else can do a better job? She will relax into the bit, take a longer, slower stride when she starts moving more forward into the hand. May require a lighter hand but steadier hand and at the same time more leg. Fast and forward are not the same.
Some dressage lessons may be in order. Does this young rider take lessons, dressage, jumping, hunter lessons?
[QUOTE=Doctracy;6156409]
I realize it seems she’s already going too forward but being behind the bit, it’s hard to explain, maybe somebody else can do a better job? She will relax into the bit, take a longer, slower stride when she starts moving more forward into the hand. May require a lighter hand but steadier hand and at the same time more leg. Fast and forward are not the same.[/QUOTE]
If a horse is curling up and not reaching into the bridle, I like to add leg and a more approachable bit to encourage the horse to work properly wherever is is ridden. Even if it means dropping back to a slower field for a while to get the point across.
But, most of my horses are/have been polo rejects, in no small part from being thrown into the game too fast, without enough basics, and bitted up too much. “Curled up” with no brakes isn’t at all uncommon, ditto upside-down with no brakes. I find that a gag encourages bit evasion by curling, ditto elevator. Pelhams vary–my favorite pelham has a thick, slightly ported mouth for tongue relief and short, floating shanks. It has plenty of ‘whoa’, but is really approachable for the horse. A lot of horses react badly to single-jointed pelhams with their nutcracker action and potential to poke the roof of the mouth (tom thumb being a pretty harsh bit), whereas a double-jointed mouthpiece with a shank (I have one with three rings) has been a LOT more approachable and encourages reaching into the bridle. I’m a big fan of having both snaffle and curb reins, so I can ride on the snaffle while still having the curb if I need to sit back and bump it a little to remind them that ‘whoa’ means ‘now’.
I used the same size Waterford (5") that I used with my snaffle bit, and it seems to fit just fine. My snaffle is a french link loose ring. I had tried an uxeter kimberwicke first, but she really didn’t go well in that, always fussed about the chain. Because of that, I have not yet tried her in a pelham.
I found the Waterford to be perfect for her. At first, I thought I would use it only on “frisky” days, when I need the extra brakes, but I’ve found that she goes well in it all the time. She seems to like the way it lies in her mouth. I use the snaffle less and less, and lately I alternate between the Waterford and a mullen mouth Happy mouth bit.
I have never tried a gag or any sort of elevator bit, I don’t trust that my hands are quiet/soft enough to do that.
[QUOTE=Corky;6156346]
Hinderella, I’ve been thinking seriously about a waterford. Did you buy the same size as a regular snaffle or did you go up a size?
I’ve seen the waterford three ring before, but I’ve never been sure what to make of it. Maybe its just too much going on in one bit? Would the leverage still be effective with such a flexible mouth piece? I’m not sure.[/QUOTE]
I hunt my endurance pony in gag, but switch to a Waterford snaffle sometimes just for the easier feel. And yes, it is sized the same as any snaffle. It is supposed to prevent them from leaning on the bit - and it does work (sorta). It isn’t a harsh bit, however, so they can (sorta) run through it if they have a mind to. Ask me how I know. :rolleyes::lol:
Oh, and they can “curl” around it - or at least yield from the poll when pressure is applied. When I tried a kimberwick, my guy hated it and started throwing his head up. He quickly learned to evade by putting his tongue over the bit. Every. Single.Time. until I took the bit off and replaced it with the Waterford again. Then he was happy. Not once did he ever offer to put his tongue over any other bit. <shaking head>
Mind you - this is a very talented creature whose mouth is like melted butter - fingertip control - for any other discipline - driving, dressage, jumping - and who did (now retired after 11 years) endurance in a halter, bit-free. He is exceptionally handy and educated…but that doesn’t always translate to the hunt field when the hounds are running, the fields are running, and the blood is high. And he IS VERY competitive.
To really have super decent breaks, I’ve found the gag, or a variation thereof, to be the best (for me and my mounts). The Waterford mouthpiece with the gag rings looks like it might have just the right amount of “stop” from bit and poll pressure without encouraging too much ducking behind the bit.
quarter moon gag or a combination bit are my favorites.
the waterford really didn’t work for my hot mare. I have 2 set ups that I like to go to.
for the rocket mare, I used the “quarter moon Gag” (located at the bottom left). I use Leather cheek pieces (as shown with other bits on that page) with it so its not as reactionary as the nylon (and more durable) and I use a running martingale. it really worked and she could not run through it. A BNT for eventing gave me the idea as he also fox hunts. I use a drop noseband on it too.
I started using the bit last year and she is really respectful of the bit. This season, I started with the leather pieces but taken off the leather cheek pieces and set it up like a regular snaffle with a running martingale, she’s fine. At home, dressage, stadium and on XC, I just ride her in a 3pc snaffle with out issues. its just the hunt she can pull. She would just pull like made. this year, possibly it being her 3rd season, she rarely pulled.
the other bit I like to use is the myler combination bit . that worked well for my ottb for the first year hunting after he came off the track. I also found that a hackamore worked well for him too. Now, he just goes in a shaffle w/running martingale.
[QUOTE=WildBlue;6156668]
If a horse is curling up and not reaching into the bridle, I like to add leg and a more approachable bit to encourage the horse to work properly wherever is is ridden. Even if it means dropping back to a slower field for a while to get the point across.
But, most of my horses are/have been polo rejects, in no small part from being thrown into the game too fast, without enough basics, and bitted up too much. “Curled up” with no brakes isn’t at all uncommon, ditto upside-down with no brakes. I find that a gag encourages bit evasion by curling, ditto elevator. Pelhams vary–my favorite pelham has a thick, slightly ported mouth for tongue relief and short, floating shanks. It has plenty of ‘whoa’, but is really approachable for the horse. A lot of horses react badly to single-jointed pelhams with their nutcracker action and potential to poke the roof of the mouth (tom thumb being a pretty harsh bit), whereas a double-jointed mouthpiece with a shank (I have one with three rings) has been a LOT more approachable and encourages reaching into the bridle. I’m a big fan of having both snaffle and curb reins, so I can ride on the snaffle while still having the curb if I need to sit back and bump it a little to remind them that ‘whoa’ means ‘now’.[/QUOTE]
I almost always have good response to low port mouthpieces, although English riders seem to be utterly terrified of anything solid.
Going back to the Mikmar idea. The low port, short or no shank Mikmar with a copper roller is very, very mild, lots of tongue relief but still good brakes. It’s very wide on the bars, wider than any other bit I’ve seen. But light because it’s aluminum.
Doctrancy-
This girl rides the cob gelding at home in lessons, events LL with him, hacks him and does various schooling shows with him. I use him for everything from w/t beginners, basic vaulting up to 3ft jumper courses and XC schooling. He doesn’t curl away from the bit in any other setting. He goes around in a simple eggbutt most of the time, and I have to get after her to keep more contact in order to get him working up into the bridle more. This guy has a nice little motor but all my kids learn to sit up and down to slow down and he accepts the simple eggbutt (his daily bridle) nicely, so no one ever needs to pull on him to stop him. He’s not a horse prone to curling, his natural evasion is more of a stick the nose out, cross the jaw or tense at the jowel and brace against too strong a hand. He doesn’t do much of this because my kids are all taught to ride a horse, with leg, up into the bridle and never to ‘pull’ a horse into a frame, but it is his natural evasion of choice, not curling like others I know. Doesn’t help that he’s thick in the neck and jowel, probably a little draft in there somewhere.
Its only in the hunt field and only when she’s in single track and is forced to try to hold him back rather than circle him that he curls. Its not a riding/training issue in terms of forward that I can see, its the fact that the little SOB thinks he can pass, even when he can’t. He is never allowed to pass while out hacking and is kept behind another horse, despite his desire to be the leader. He needs to accept that he can’t pass other horses, and to stop trying. Thats why he gets in trouble. He has a hard time accepting her telling him 'no, you CAN’T pass!"
I’m wondering if the waterford would allow her to have more of a feel on the bars and corners of his mouth without the leverage thats causing him to curl away but still preventing him from just setting his jaw and leaning on her hands. I don’t believe he’s curling as an evasion to contact so much as he is curling away from the leverage. I’ve never seen him curl in a non-leverage bit, but I’ve also never seen him require so much contact as out hunting. Going XC or jumpers he doesn’t back off or curl in the 3 ring at all, FYI. So this will be an experiment, but I do expect he’ll listen to the more direct pressure of the snaffle better. I’m just worried that too soft a snaffle and he’ll run right through it with his nose out in front of him (so I won’t even TRY a mullen happy mouth). What I can forsee him doing is crossing his jaw or bracing against the bit, which is why he goes in a figure 8, and why I am thinking the waterford might be better than a cork screw, or similar. Does my logic on this sound about right to those of you who’ve used waterfords successfully? The idea is that they can’t lean in this bit, I know that, but what about crossing their jaws or holding tension in the jowel? This is why I went to leverage in the first place, because I anticipated him getting his nose out infront of him and setting his jaw against the bit. I would be interested in trying a segunda if all else fails, but at that point I’d be riding him myself, I wouldn’t put a bit with that much power in the hands of a junior, even one with nice soft hands like hers.
And consensus is that if he goes in a 5in single jointed snaffle, the 5in waterford will be ok? I’m really hoping I can find one at this tack swap on Sunday so I don’t have to buy one full price! I’ve seen a lot running in the $50 range, so used would be lovely.
Corky, this guy sounds similar (in terms of the way he evades and motivations) to my older mare. The Waterford with figure 8 and running martingale works really well on her. If you can find one, I’d try a loose ring Waterford, to make it even harder for him to grab and hold. Remind the rider it’s especially important to GIVE after brief takes in a Waterford. They can lean on it, it’s just more difficult.
Does the rider know how to do shoulder-in? My mare does better riding in a group with the Waterford, but frankly no bit is going to be perfect for the situation you describe (pulling and curling at slower paces in company on single-track trails). While the single track means she can’t circle, doing shoulder-in (alternating bend every few strides) is a really good way to control the pace of a horse when mere brakes are not sufficient. On a horse that tends to brace and pull, it will require more inside leg than the rider may expect…
Good luck!
PS - here you go, $18 plus shipping:
http://www.vtosaddlery.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DWLRSB
You can definitely find a 5" Waterford for less than $50. This one’s on eBay with a 14 day return:
I found my pony was MUCH less inclined to lean on the Waterford than on anything else. She’s still heavy in front, but she’s built downhill and she’s a thick necked little pony (probably QH, Mustang or Morgan) so to some extent, that’s the way she’ll always go.
She will still sometimes lean on one side of the bit and throw her shoulder to the side, if she’s being stubborn, but I believe that’s more a shortcoming on my part than an effect of the bit.
This is the short necked little redhead:
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2323776020106800354IEjwso
The pinned back ears are just her normal way of going , she’s not unhappy here.
My straight arms and flat knuckles are why I don’t even think about things like gags and elevators 
[QUOTE=Corky;6157062]
Its only in the hunt field and only when she’s in single track and is forced to try to hold him back rather than circle him that he curls. Its not a riding/training issue in terms of forward that I can see, its the fact that the little SOB thinks he can pass, even when he can’t. He is never allowed to pass while out hacking and is kept behind another horse, despite his desire to be the leader. He needs to accept that he can’t pass other horses, and to stop trying. Thats why he gets in trouble. He has a hard time accepting her telling him 'no, you CAN’T pass!" [/QUOTE]
I’ve been dealing with the exact same problem on a former polo pony this season. He hears the horn and wants to be in the action, and he WILL climb into someone’s saddle if I ask or physically shove the other horses out of the way with his shoulder if I don’t stop him in time.
We both get frustrated with “no, you can’t pass” <nag, nag, nag> “no, you can’t give that horse a shove under the tail and speed him up” <nag, nag, nag> and I hate having to get in his mouth with frequent half-halts or asking with more than my seat for ‘slower, please’. It easily devolves into a downward spiral with him paying less and less attention to my aids as he gets more frustrated by ‘no, no, no’.
It’s horribly boring and has taken a dozen or so outings, but I told him if he can’t behave and stay where he’s put in faster fields, we’ll have to chug along in the hilltoppers. When he stays politely in line, without curling, rooting, pulling, or head-flinging, I stay completely out of his mouth, cue with my weight, and tell him ‘yes, yes, yes–good boieee!’. When he behaves in the hunt field at the walk/trot, we go in a faster field the next outing. If he gets strong and tries to pass or keeps speeding up and having to be checked to maintain position, it’s ‘nope’ back to boooring until he’s again on an easy rein at the walk and trot a length behind the next horse. It’s paying off–our last hilltopping outing he was on the buckle most of the ride and in second field this week he got a little strong but I didn’t touch the curb rein once, even at the canter with other horses misbehaving. YMMV, but I’ve had very good luck using boring-for-forward-horses group walk-trot rides as a calm forum to make very, very clear what they’re supposed to be doing in a group and in response to my aids (for polo ponies, too–you can’t exactly school a horse properly mid-chukka).
Sorry–I know that’s not strictly a ‘bit’ answer. But I’ve found the bit between the ears can matter more than the hardware. And, for hardware in a hunt field where you can accidentally pull or jab (if, for example, he slips), I really like the main bit/reins to be something the horse packs well and isn’t at all afraid to accept contact so you can collect or steady him as needed. Then, if emergency air brakes may also needed by that particular horse, it’s NBD to carry a second rein across a couple fingers.
I theorize about a Waterford, and have one, but never used it hunting. I used to use a gag on my huge TB who was strong. I’d give him a few good reefs at the beginning of the hunt and he would slip along beautifully after that. I was able to avoid the nag, nag, nag, that must deaden any horse. After the first run, the edge was off him anyway and he settled down…knew his job.
[QUOTE=Ponyclubrocks;6149908]
Not implying anything about the OP or others but my observation in the hunt field is that some people bit up and don’t understand why it isn’t effective for long, but fail to understand how to execute a proper half halt.
Some folks unintentionally start hanging on the bridle, due to tension, excitement or lack of training and some horses will just numb out and start ignoring the bit.
One of my hunt horses, hang on him and he is guaranteed to speed up to Mach 10! If you stay light in his mouth you can hunt him in a simple smooth snaffle.
Just saying what I have observed…[/QUOTE]
I agree
That being said I suggest 1-2 ccs. Or is that a dirty word around here? I am sure I am going to get some snarky comments for suggesting. To each their own. Just feel its good for the horse and rider. IMO issues should be sorted out as much as possible before going out with the hunt. That’s why we have hound walking and cubing.
Wow, 2ccs? I’ve had problems with horses stumbling with as little as 3/4 of a cc. That seems like an awfully hefty dose, especially considering putting a child on board. Hate to have the horse stumble and fall.
Not sure why she really needs to have the same bit for hunting and showing? May just have to find what works for hunting and what works for showing, the hunt bit might not be pretty, in style or even legal, but what really matters is if horse likes it and it works.
I found a bit for hunting and found a similar bit for showing that was acceptable ( equitation/jumpers). I didn’t need nearly as much bit in the show ring, just enough for tight turns since we did the Eq and jumpers, if she does hunters she might need even less.
Horses are funny with bits. The reason I have a giant box of bits, many of which look similar but not exactly the same. You just have to keep trying them on until you find something they like and that may change, depending on training, who’s riding and what they’re doing that day.
Do you know anybody with a large bit collection that you could try?
I bought a waterford D today and a myler knock off, a D w slots and a mouth piece that is about the thickness of a corkscrew but feels a bit more like twisted wire. It is jointed but has the shaped mouthpiece. It has a chain on it right now too. I think I’ll try the waterford first, then go to the other one if the waterford isn’t right. I was hoping for some type of slotted D, I was wondering if just a touch of leverage would help without being too much. I paid $15 for the waterford and $10 for the slotted D, gotta love tack swaps!!
And if none of them work for him, oh well, at least I have a few new interesting options for the next horse!
Good luck! I get my bits from tack sales, bargain bins, etc.
[QUOTE=Doctracy;6164568]
Wow, 2ccs? I’ve had problems with horses stumbling with as little as 3/4 of a cc. That seems like an awfully hefty dose, especially considering putting a child on board. Hate to have the horse stumble and fall.
Not sure why she really needs to have the same bit for hunting and showing? May just have to find what works for hunting and what works for showing, the hunt bit might not be pretty, in style or even legal, but what really matters is if horse likes it and it works.
I found a bit for hunting and found a similar bit for showing that was acceptable ( equitation/jumpers). I didn’t need nearly as much bit in the show ring, just enough for tight turns since we did the Eq and jumpers, if she does hunters she might need even less.
Horses are funny with bits. The reason I have a giant box of bits, many of which look similar but not exactly the same. You just have to keep trying them on until you find something they like and that may change, depending on training, who’s riding and what they’re doing that day.
Do you know anybody with a large bit collection that you could try?[/QUOTE]
I wasn’t suggesting a dosage amount I assume the owner should know. It was just a figure of speech. At least around here in the mid-atlantic hunt country.
Enjoyed and agree with your post. Especially the “giant box” suggestion.
Unfortunately it has been my experience that a lot if not most horses don’t have the temperament to be decent fox hunter. Let alone good one. There are a lot of things going on. That’s way a good field hunter is worth its weight in gold.
find a cowboy!
forget the bitting; get a cowboy to put a Western “whoa” on him:yes:
I used to hunt a horse that I had in a mullen mouth pelham, no chain, but double reins (go figure!).
I am about to hunt my partbred Andalusian (with a neck most stallion owners would die for) in a happy mouth dutch gag (double reins) and hano noseband.
If she gets too strong, I’ll put her in a double bridle (short shank weymouth) with a cavesson.
I consider myself to be a balanced, confident rider and would prefer to ‘bit up’ than have something gentler which would lead to a struggle for control.
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