Blue Hors drops Doolittle for poor foals

[siegi_b]

Quote by Fairview Horse Center… "It is unfortunate that so many people trust a BN judgement/words, rather than seeking knowledge for themselves. If buyers of the foals developed their own ability to judge a horse, then the foal/horse would sell or not on their own merit, and any announcement would not have an effect, as people "

Ding, ding, ding… we have a winner!

I expect a stallion owner to let everybody know if his stallion does not produce satisfactorily! And for those wondering… Doolittle may have already had “brain surgery”. Just because Blu Hors didn’t say it in those words doesn’t mean it wasn’t done.

[Kareen]

Absolutely right stoicfish. It is therefor way off base for any stallion owner to make decisions that are up to the mare owner. The breeder carries all the risk of breeding after mating. It’s him who raises the foal and has to deal with it, find it a place to sell to or promote it under saddle themselves. He is the one responsible for the resulting product and suffers the damage if it turns out poorly marketable. So the least the SO can do is to make sure they stand behind their product for longer than just one season otherwise they rightfully lose the mare-owner’s trust.
A business is a business if it results in a profit in itself. If it is just used to get rid of profits made in another business I would call it a tax-reduction venture not a business. It is an open secret the majority of stallion ownerships in Europe are financed with foreign funds which originate outside the horse business. That’s what makes life extremely difficult for the smaller, more traditional stallion stations of the past. Never wondered why so many European studfarms have closed the shop during the last years? This is why. Big money spent on horse-‘businesses’ like these.
Either way it doesn’t make a difference. No idea what they were thinking. Maybe they weren’t thinking at all or were cited in error. We’ll learn about it sooner or later.

[FMulder]

“It is an open secret the majority of stallion ownerships in Europe are financed with foreign funds which originate outside the horse business.”

I guess I’m out of the loop then???

I’m not going to disagree with your Kareen, as I only have my experience and knowledge behind me. But can you provide me any examples of the “so many European studfarms have closed the shop during the last years”. I’m not being argumentative, I’m just interested in the fact behind the statement.

If anyone knows of anyone trying “to get rid of profits made in another business”, could you get them to contact me please?

[Home_Again_Farm]

@Oakstable;4619270

What does their web site say?

Too odd to throw a stallion over the cliff based on one foal crop.

Makes me wonder if Eurodressage got the story right.

I just peeked at their website.

http://www.bluehors.net/cms/index.php?idcat=2

Doolittle is gone and the link to his page gets the message:

Fehler

   Die angeforderte Seite konnte nicht gefunden werden.

That means :

Mistake
The page you requested could not be found.

[Oakstable]

The link I posted earlier today still comes up.

I totally agree with Kareen. The mare owner takes the risk in breeding to a freshman stallion and certainly would not expect that owners of this stallion to throw him under the bus after one foal crop.

[Home_Again_Farm]

I know that link comes up, but doubt that it is meant to.

[DownYonder]

You know, I just went back and looked at the EuroDressage blurb again.

Blue Hors stallion station announced that their German bred black stallion Blue Hors Doolittle (by Don Schufro x Lauries Crusador xx) will no longer be standing at stud. The five year old became the Danish Warmblood Licensing Champion and was winner of the 35-day stallion performance test. He produced 131 registered Danish foals after his first year of breeding. Esben Moller, manager of Blue Hors, told Ridehesten that they pulled Doolittle off their breeding roster based on that first crop of foals. “Doolittle’s foals were in general not of the quality we had hoped for and we have a big stallion collection at Blue Hors and only want the best of the best. This is in the interest of the breeders and stallion stations themselves has to pick the stallions and keep the standard at a high level.” The reason of this decision was that many of the Doolittle foals had problems with the conformation.

No where does it say that Moller (Blue Hors manager) used the term “poor foals”. The part about “conformation problems” was also not part of his quote.

He DID say they were “in general not of the quality we had hoped for”, but that is a far cry from saying they were “poor” in quality.

And the comment about “problems with the conformation” also looks to be a journalistic interpretation.

So, reading his comment again, it seems that – as he said – the foals were simply not the quality they expected, so they were moving him off the roster. It does make me wonder if they expected him to put Don Schufro movement and Lauries Crusador type in all his foals, but he was instead doing the opposite (Don Schufro type / Lauries Crusador movement).

[Kareen]

You know what? What business do they have in judgeing someone else’s foals? They are not a breed registry. If they chose to no longer stand a stallion at stud and deem it a good idea to ‘thrown him under the bus’ before his first foals are even old enough to participate in stallion approval that is fine and totally their choice. But they should not judge the stallion’s foal crop altogether because chances are they haven’t even seen all Doolittle foals and even if they had, they are still not entitled to making such judgement. Last thing I knew neither the BlueHors owner nor Esben Moeller (sorry for misspelling, lacking the / on keyboard) were part of any breed registry’s board of judges.
They are a private enterprise (for whatever) and as such it’s none of their business rating someone else’s foals. If they were unhappy with what their own crop looked like no problem. They could have stopped using him. They are entitled to think of their own horses whatever they like and if they feel like removing him from their roster - their choice. Any stallion owner can chose so anytime. But even a sweeping wishy-washy statement like the one cited (all assuming Eurodressage cited correctly) is way off base I’m sorry.

[siegi_b]

Well Kareen, I guess BLue Hors isn’t going to take your “advice”. So other than keep ranting on about what YOU think should have been done, there’s really not a thing you can do about it. :mad:

Blue Hors has and continues to run a very successful stallion station/training complex. Their horses have done well in international competition. Sounds to me like they’re doing something right.

[Kareen]

Not if they want to keep harvesting studfees from me lol. But I guess they are way too successful to worry about people stopping to use their stallions. It is good there are still people out there who will believe anything if it has a big name attached to it. Feel free to make your own choices and express your own opinion. I shall do the same and you’ll stop sending grumpy smileys ok

[YankeeLawyer]

I have to say I agree with Kareen. I think their press statement is extremely arrogant. Did anyone stop to think for one minute that the damage is not simply a wasted stud fee, but potentially well over a million dollars in lost value to their clients - all due to a cavalier remark about their decision to discontinue him from the Blu Hors roster? At least one poster stated that any fillies produced by this horse likewise should not be bred. Wow is all I can say. I am as picky as the pickiest person out there in terms of quality but I have to say I am getting tired of some of the arrogant attitudes of breeders and breed registries. And I have a really hard time believing that anyone can judge with any degree of certainty the value of a foal crop before they are even one year old where, as here, they do have excellent bloodlines and a lot of factors that would tend to predict they will turn out better than average.

In any event, I don’t think the way they handled the decision should be lauded.

[SGray]

@Oakstable;4620612

The link I posted earlier today still comes up.

I totally agree with Kareen. The mare owner takes the risk in breeding to a freshman stallion and certainly would not expect that owners of this stallion to throw him under the bus after one foal crop.

Blue Hors Doolittle

Hannoveraner, sort, f. 2005, 167 cm

Vi er stolte over at kunne præsentere denne sorte hingst, for vore kunder til bedækningssæsonen 2008. Doolittle er en hingst af særdeles god type, tre særdeles gode gangarter samt en afstamning der er helt exceptionel! Doolittle er hjemkøbt som føl og er opvokset her i Randbøl. Han er efter Blue Hors Don Schufro, der jo mere og mere tager over efter sin berømte far Donnerhall. Don Schufro videregiver sine særdeles gode rideegenskaber til sine afkom. Han har sejre og placeringer til de største internationale stævner. Han fører for syvende gang i træk det tyske dressurindeks med 181 Point. Han er far til 13 kårede sønner, afkom solgt for toppriser på auktioner, flere heste med sejre og placeringer i “lille tur” og Grand Prix… Han er far til årets hoppe i Dansk Varmblod tre gange! Donna Silver i 2004, Donna Romina i 2006 og senest i 2007, da hoppen Uno Donna Unique, vandt årets titel og blev tildelt guldmedalje. Ligeledes vandt hoppen Rebelle (opdrættet på Blue Hors) årets elitehoppeskue i Oldenburg. Ligeledes vandt hun i ligeså suveræn stil Landeschampionatet under rytter.

Morfaderen Lauries Crusador xx er dén fuldblodshingst der i nyere tid har “slået til” i varmblodsavlen, hvor han især i hannoveraneravlen har fået kæmpe indflydelse. Over 50 kårede hingste og mere end 120 statspræmiehopper taler sit tydelige sprog. I sporten har flere “Laurie” afkom nået “hele vejen” og som morfar findes han i et utal af stamtavler på heste, der har været fremme i rampelyset.

I tredje og fjerde generation kommer hingstene Dynamo og Pik Bube I. Begge hingste som var kendt for at producere mange top avls- og sportheste. Dynamos mest succesfulde afkom var hoppen Dollar Girl, der bl.a. under Nick Skelton gik både OL, VM og EM og vandt mange store springklasser. Statspræmiehoppen Dunja, som er mormor til Doolittle, er helsøster til tre kårede hingste: Demonstrator der gik Grand Prix samt Display og Don Diego, alle efter Dynamo. Hun er ligeledes mormor til hingsten High Spirits eft. Hohenstein. Ud af hoppestammen, Hann. Stamm 479 kommer også hingstene Pik Senior og Flüsterton.

Doolittle bliver fremstillet ved Dansk Varmblods hingstekåring i Herning 2008. Og bliver ligeledes fremstillet i Hannover og Oldenburg i 2008.

Bedækningspris * 1. rate 3.000,- + moms * 2. rate 2.000,- + moms

so what was the stud fee on him?

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=SGray;4620850]

so what was the stud fee on him?[/QUOTE]

In 2008, his stud fee was 700 Euros plus VAT for this “Black Pearl.”

http://www.bluehors.dk/hingste/eng/Doolittle_eng.htm

But, in terms of lost value to the mareowners who breed to him, you have to consider the diminished value of the offspring as a result of the bad PR from Blu Hors, which arguably rendered foals worthless that otherwise might have brought 10K +. Multiply that by 133 foals and, at the high end, the numbers are pretty big.

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

Anyone know how many foals are currently due? Seems a poor choice of timing - announcing this at the beginning of foaling season…

What were the actual stats? i.e. 112 were inspected and xxx were premium and xx were stallion prospects…anybody know?

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;4620888]
In 2008, his stud fee was 700 Euros plus VAT for this “Black Pearl.”

http://www.bluehors.dk/hingste/eng/Doolittle_eng.htm

But, in terms of lost value to the mareowners who breed to him, you have to consider the diminished value of the offspring as a result of the bad PR from Blu Hors, which arguably rendered foals worthless that otherwise might have brought 10K +. Multiply that by 133 foals and, at the high end, the numbers are pretty big.[/QUOTE]

well also the farm has lost money keeping him all this time…

“Doolittle was purchased as a foal and has been raised at Blue Hors.”

he was born in 2005

so that’s five years of maintenance for what ? an unsuitable stallion

Tamara in TN

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;4620899]
well also the farm has lost money keeping him all this time…

“Doolittle was purchased as a foal and has been raised at Blue Hors.”

he was born in 2005

so that’s five years of maintenance for what ? an unsuitable stallion

Tamara in TN[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what they feed their boys but presumably after grossing well into 6 figures in 2 years of stud fees they at least broke even on their investment.

[ahf]

Tamara, I don’t think they lost a dime.

130x700e = 91,000 EUROS. x 1.47 = $133,770 USD

And that was just for his 2008 breedings. I still would love to know how many he got in 2009 that have yet to hit the ground.

[columbus]

Learning opportunity for mare owners

ASK how many foals will be produced buy a stallion in the following year. Personal opinion only…it would be a bad choice to breed to an unproven stallion who has a book open to over 30 mares let alone over 50 let alone over 100 let alone over 130. Even if I were gifted with the breeding it seems bad business. I am not saying it is wrong to support a new stallion, I am saying it is wrong to allow a new stallion to breed >130 mares.

The absolutely only reason for a stallion owner to do that is to ensure the money is taken up front…the majority of stallions don’t make the big time and you have first flush and enthusiasm to make your dough off the mare owners. This is NOT how you make a top stallion…this is how you harvest the most money. If they were making a top stallion he would have had a small group of top mares and dramatically produce the foals to best affect THEN increase the book.

LOOK at how Blu Horse managed this stallion. I would not support Blu Horse with their young stallions manage like this. I can say yahoo they made lots of enviable money but they managed this in a way to leave mare and foal owners swinging in the wind. If you are a fashionista in the breeding world this is how you get bit. Not one of those mare owners knew if this stallion would improve their mare…all of them were gambling…all of them lost big time. Bad management by the stallion owner and bad management by the mare owners. Lesson to learn here. PatO

[lolita1]

I think some of you have missed the point the article quite clearly states conformation issues … in this day and age of lawsuits if Blue Hors stud felt that an injustice had occurred they would have made the writer produce a retraction and have had those comments pulled off the internet very quickly. They would know about this article and they have not done any thing.

I believe they have done a quite brave thing but as mentioned a sad thing for all those people (who haven’t passed a comment yet) that bred to him. Never have I seen such a public announcement or denouncement of a stallion in what is / was its first breeding year. As others have stated they normally just get quietly brushed to the side. Something quite clearly was wrong with a number of those foals.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=columbus;4620958]
I am not saying it is wrong to support a new stallion, I am saying it is wrong to allow a new stallion to breed >130 mares.

The absolutely only reason for a stallion owner to do that is to ensure the money is taken up front…the majority of stallions don’t make the big time and you have first flush and enthusiasm to make your dough off the mare owners. This is NOT how you make a top stallion…this is how you harvest the most money. If they were making a top stallion he would have had a small group of top mares and dramatically produce the foals to best affect THEN increase the book. [/QUOTE]

That has been my argument all along, but it IS how European breeding works. It is about quickly breeding to the new, unproven HOT, HOT stallion, to get that couple of years of foal sales, before you find out he is a dud when they get undersaddle. That IS the WHOLE breed registry marketing plan! :no: It is not about producing the best athletes for sport.

It is about fast money, not about riding horses.