The OP seems to be knowledgeable and on the ball, csaper58. I think she can handle sending the letter.
And good for you, OP, for setting such a short time frame for them to leave – I completely agree with that!
Well… good for you for partially thinking things thru.:rolleyes:
The OP is not the only person reading this.
It is possible others will benefit from the information I have posted.
scrbear11 you are awesome. This thread should be pinned to the top of COTH for informational posterity … if any COTH BO has a non-paying boarder, see this thread and do likewise. Within the laws of your locality, of course.
Hopefully this lovely mare does have a soft landing … somewhere other than your barn. Unless she is in the hands of a new paying owner.
I don’t see any reason you shouldn’t out the lying, piece of trash former barn owner who got you in to this mess. If she had had the ovaries to tell the truth, you wouldn’t be in this mess. You need to be able to trust each other
OP, you did a great job handling this potential “no-pay” scenario. First of all, you were very prompt in addressing the issue. The minute a payment is late, it’s time to contact owners and start the payment discussion. Next, you did a great job by contacting family members and being persistent. Lastly, you were very quick on your feet to recognize the criminal aspect of eluding payment using a bad credit card number.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you that the horse gets moved as planned! I don’t think that you need to take responsibility for worrying about what happens at the next boarding situation. It’s a tough moral conundrum, but recognize that most places aren’t going to call you for a reference. It is not your responsibility to call ahead, unasked, to let the new barn know all the gory details. Sadly, there are a lot of people out there who don’t want to pay the expenses of horse ownership and are looking to shift it onto a gullible, disorganized or confrontation-averse BO.
I do not pass too much judgement onto the trainer that didn’t warn you. They should have been honest, but I think that when you check references it is worth recognizing that if the previous barn is desperate to get the horse moved, they aren’t going to say anything bad. I also think that if you are doing retirement board, this kind of thing can happen very easily even with clients who have genuinely good references. I don’t think there is anything to be gained by outing the trainer.
For others who may be reading this thread for informational purposes, I have a few things to add. While I’m a big believer in the power of the personal phone call, it’s also important to document your presentation of bills to the client. If you can’t prove that you billed someone and notified someone of the payment issue, that can slow down a resolution of the problem. Be quick to send official letters and keep copies and mailing receipts.
It’s also important to document a client’s response to your billing. If a client responds in writing that they will pay you, blah, blah, then you have documentation that they agree that they owe you the money and are not disputing the bill itself. That can be a helpful ingredient in resolving these situations.
Lastly, the most important thing is to get the horse moved. As long as that horse is on your property, you are in a really tough spot. It is still running up bills that may or may not get paid. What will you do if it colics or gets injured? Not only could you get stuck with vet bills, you could also be blamed or held responsible (non-pay clients can be quick to try to shift the blame!).
Not to be snaky, condescending OP but in IMO and experience, a life time in the “business” of horses. If this comes as a surprise you entered into the business truly naive.
This situation has been an issue, problem since the first barn was built and boarding of horses was offered. EVERY business takes into account, “theft of services”, thief in general. Take this into consideration when set their profit margins, writing a business plan, presenting a pro-forma to a bank and or investors.
Anyone that doesn’t is a dreamer. For some reason those that board horses think that those who provide this service are greedy if we do.
It’s called the “cost of doing business”.
BeeHoney hit the nail on the head with “I think that when you check references it is worth recognizing that if the previous barn is desperate to get the horse moved”
It either that or go through possible expensive legal recourse to end up owning a horse that they can legal put down. An agonizing EMOTIONAL, RATIONAL business decision. For all the OP knows the prior barn owner is owed $1000s also.
Horse owners caught up in this situation aren’t necessarily “bad” people. Most are not people of “means”. The are usually people of conscience but lack the financial means to easy their conscience. That does not make it “right”. They are hoping that someone will pick up their mess. I KNOW I have been caught up in the same scenario when the world financial collapse hit in 08. To the tune of close to $100,000. And their forking forking horses. Some of which because I am not a realistic business owner are still expensive pasture pets. NOT of our doing pasture pets.
OP cut your loses and do what it takes to get the owners to come and get the horse. You have plenty of legal recourse as others have pointed out. But in the end it will cost you more than what you will regroup the majority of the times. NO one walks away from a horse that is worth more than what is owed.
You will get title and pay to feed and look after it for life or as long as you own you farm. Or beat yourself up for having to make the emotionally agonizing decision to have it put down. Now or in the future.
People who run “Retirement boarding” farms don’t usually charge by the month. At least not those that are run as their principle business and livelihood. Ones that have been in business for a long time charge a hefty upfront fee of many thousand depending on age. Plus associated expenses that come with age.
This is the REAL world of the business of horses. Or be in the business of being a good Samaritan. Which doesn’t pay too well.
Feel free to jump through all of he legal recourse that others have suggested. But in most cases you will not see any money. You will get the horse and or apiece of paper that says you are owed X amount of money.
[QUOTE=csaper58;8994196]
Do you know the legal definition of “a letter of notice”? Or what legally constitutes “has been sent”?
Also, there is no mention of how long the vet/boarding est. must wait after receiving the last payment before a ‘notice of abandonment’ can be sent to the owner.
My instincts tell me there may be some paraphrasing going on. There are to many ‘laymen’s terms’ that need to be clearly defined.[/QUOTE]
csaper- No paraphrasing here. This is straight from the Virginia Code.
And fortunately, if you read my update, I do not have to go through with this yet.
Maybe the TB world has a better class of dead beats than the average boarding barn. Most of the deadbeats I’ve seen at barns I’ve boarded at I would not call “good people.”
They are people who use others so they can maintain hobby they cannot afford. The ones I’ve come across lie, steal, and manipulate others so they can keep their precious horsie(s). They don’t care if they are taking food off the table of others. Half the time, they really don’t even care that much about the horse. That is not what I call a good person.
Marshfield- I will not openly out the previous barn owner for fear of legal retaliation. If anyone would like to message me privately, I will divulge, but not on an open forum.
Curious question - when you asked the previous barn owner about these clients did you specifically ask them if they were good at paying or did you just verify their story about the horse?
I am still stuck on the “11 page boarding agreement”. WOW.
OP, how to you get your boarders to sign (much less read) an 11 page agreement?
I commend you for being so on top of the situation ---- most people will let an owner slide for a bit.
I hope the horse has a smooth landing, because it is really all about the horse in the long run.
Best of luck.
gumtree- with all due respect (which I will give you, since you did not give me), before you judge my naivety, you should know I have had a boarding barn for three years. Prior to that I strictly did training horses. And had a training business for ten years prior. Never in my thirteen years of operating my own business have I come across this type of person and this type of situation. Additionally, this is not my principle business (fortunately).
I vet people thoroughly, ask tons of questions. In this situation both parties lied in order to have the horse moved. And that’s unfortunate for the horse.
And if you read through the posts, and saw my update, you would now understand that after I threatened legal action, I was paid. I put a deadline on the owners, the horse must be moved this weekend. If it doesn’t happen at least I’m paid through the month. The owners will receive a letter on the third of February once this happens again. Horse will be my property by the 20th. Fortunately, in Virginia, having title transferred to a boarding operation is not a huge legal process. In other states, it probably differs. I’m fortunate that the Virginia code protects me.
When I get a new boarder into the barn, I ALWAYS check references from the prior barn.
Why are they leaving?
What are the horses like?
Do they pay on time?
Have they every bounced a check?
And more personal questions about horse and owner.
Yes, 11 page board agreement. When you want to board at my barn, you don’t have an option. Sign it, or you aren’t moving it. It has three signature boxes, and 15 places to initial.
gumtree- I know plenty of retiree boarding barns that charge by the month. I sent Sonny to one that is owned by another CoTH member. There are a number of CoTH members that have retiree boarding farms who charge monthly board fees.
Places like Ryerss may charge a large upfront fee but the facility becomes the owner of the horse. I still retained ownership of Sonny until he died.
I don’t consider places like Ryerss to be Retirement boarding farm. They actually don’t refer to themselves as a boarding farm. The appear to be part of the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries. They house both retirees and rescue horses. Just a different model. Neither is the end all and be all just different.
OP I’m a bit in love with you. What an awesome manager.
Also, I need to send a shout out to you for your original offer to take the mare yourself with transfer of ownership and no debt owing. That’s like taking in a rescue. It should not be forgotten that you TRIED to do the best for the horse and these people are really doing their best to prevent that.
Fingers crossed you’ll have a lovely, empty stall come Monday! If I lived near you, you’d have one of my retirees!
[I]"OP I’m a bit in love with you. What an awesome manager.
Also, I need to send a shout out to you for your original offer to take the mare yourself with transfer of ownership and no debt owing. That’s like taking in a rescue. It should not be forgotten that you TRIED to do the best for the horse and these people are really doing their best to prevent that.
Fingers crossed you’ll have a lovely, empty stall come Monday! If I lived near you, you’d have one of my retirees!" [/I]
Ditto!! Would you mind PM-ing me your board agreement to look at/learn from? I would love to see what you have included that I may have missed in creating my own. Sounds like it is very, very, thorough.
Not looking like anything is going to happen. I’m a little frustrated, but what can I say or do… If the mare has no where to go… At least the month is paid. Will begin again on February 2 with the letter of notice. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.
Being that I have no contact with the owners, the scary thing about all this is what if something happens to this horse. I do have a clause in my board agreement giving me permission to make euthanasia decisions on behalf of my owner’s should they not be reachable, and it is veterinarian recommended. Virginia is going to be plagued with colic weather soon… just makes me nervous.
If anyone would like to see a copy of my board agreement, feel free to email me: scrbear11@yahoo.com
I’ll never forget a conversation I had once with a couple who own quite a few questionable rental properties. They said they never gave good paying tenants a positive recommendation when someone else called about them as they did not want to lose that type of tenant, but the bad ones got glowing references. Perhaps checking two places back is the way to go.
This is exactly why I no longer board horses. I can’t afford to get stuck with a dumped horse and the old softy in me would be unable to sell it at auction.
When we had rental properties, we always assumed the current landlord’s recommendation would be valueless. If you want the truth, you had to call the previous landlord. Even then, landlords in MA have to be careful what they say, or they can end up in hot water.
