Boarders horse pawing at night

[anjie218]

I have a boarders horse that woke me up TWO different nights this weekend from pawing on the stall walls. Its so loud I can hear it from my house! Leaves huge indents in the stall wall up to 3 foot high on the walls! The horse is ruining my automatic water also by kicking and biting it.

I have cameras in my barn, so I pulled them up to make sure he wasn’t casting himself on the stall wall. Nothing… he was just pawing! He was so loud he had another horse in the barn running her stall and making her upset.

I’m scared he’s going to get bone chips or a broken leg if he keeps it up. If he were my horse I would put hobbles on the horse while he’s eating, maybe take them off for the night, and then put them on if necessary during the night to try to discourage him from hitting his legs against the wall.

Point is… I don’t want her to have a horse with bone chips in his feet or legs. I also want to get my sleep!

The owner will not try out the hobbles! She insists on giving him a slow feeding hay bag to try first. She doesn’t want “marks” from the hobbles on his legs. I even told her they come with padding… but she still doesn’t want to try them. She also will not try kick chains.

Anyone have any experience with pawing horses that slam their feet against the stall wall? What did you do to stop it?

I should mention… I’ve also tried tying the horse in his stall while I’m out in the barn cleaning and riding. He’s fine tying, once in a while will paw but will stop after a while. Paws constantly in the cross ties though for his owner!

HELP ME GET SOME SLEEP!

[joiedevie99]

Can he spend the night in turnout?

[trubandloki]

Why is he pawing?
Is he out of food and bored?

I think the slow feed hay net is a great plan.

Did he do this at the last barn? Is he new to your barn?

[alibi_18]

Is this a new habit? or has he been pawing for a long time?

You need to find out why he’s kicking/pawing like that. Is he bored, hungry, uncomfortable/in pain, anxious?

Putting a slow net for his hay might be the solution : it will likely distract him for a few hours.

Hobbles might also be a solution… but it needs to be trained. You just can’t put them on and voilà! or else, the horse might very well injure itself… same goes for kicking chains. I’ve seen it goes bad, wasn’t pretty and a few big wooden planks were destroyed.

But your barn, your rule. If you don’t find a suitable solution, you might have to ask your boarder to leave.

ETA :

Paws constantly in the cross ties though for his owner!

Regardless of the stall pawing problem, this training issue should be address with the Horse Owner. I guess the horse is being rewarded for it? :rolleyes:

[Gainer]

Yep, sounds like he’s running out of hay and is bored. I also think the slow feed hay net is a good idea.

Not crazy about the idea of hobbles or being tied without supervision. Horses tend to find too many ways to get into trouble.

[anjie218]

He’s new as of July at my barn.

A little history on the horse… he was gelded when he was 5 years old because they couldn’t handle him. He’s 15 now.

He will bite you if you walk past him too close in the cross ties. He will also try to kick you! When his owner brushes him he tries to kick her as well once in a while! Its just his personality, I think he’s got away with murder for years! If you get after him the behavior escalates! Thats why I don’t think kick chains would help, but maybe hobbles would?

The horse has been getting 3 flakes of hay in the morning (from me feeding), then 2 flakes for lunch when the owner comes out, then she will put 5-6+ flakes in his stall for at night. I end up taking some out so that he has only 3 flakes in his stall at night. Roughly he’s eating 35-40 pounds of hay a day! He’s 16.3 hands, but I’ve also tried to mention to the owner that we have to get on the same feeding schedule and not be over feeding. Her reply was “With his hard workouts he’s been getting lately I want to keep up with his GREAT MUSCLE GAINS that he’s been getting. And since there is no grass or hay out in the pastures he needs more hay.”

So its not a feeding issue… its more behavior.

The horse is also turned out from 7am-7pm, sometimes later during the summer nights.

She would never let him be outside 24/7 because shes scared he would get thrush, even though my pens are fairly dry.

[anjie218]

@alibi_18

Is this a new habit? or has he been pawing for a long time?

You need to find out why he’s kicking/pawing like that. Is he bored, hungry, uncomfortable/in pain, anxious?

Putting a slow net for his hay might be the solution : it will likely distract him for a few hours.

Hobbles might also be a solution… but it needs to be trained. You just can’t put them on and voilà! or else, the horse might very well injure itself… same goes for kicking chains. I’ve seen it goes bad, wasn’t pretty and a few big wooden planks were destroyed.

But your barn, your rule. If you don’t find a suitable solution, you might have to ask your boarder to leave.

ETA : Regardless of the stall pawing problem, this training issue should be address with the Horse Owner. I guess the horse is being rewarded for it? :rolleyes:

She will smack the horse when he paws in the cross ties. I got her to now tie him in the corner of a stall and leave him there while she goes and does something else to make him learn patience. The hitting and yelling doesn’t work, it only makes it 100 times worse for him!

[trubandloki]

@anjie218

He’s new as of July at my barn.

A little history on the horse… he was gelded when he was 5 years old because they couldn’t handle him. He’s 15 now.

He will bite you if you walk past him too close in the cross ties. He will also try to kick you! When his owner brushes him he tries to kick her as well once in a while! Its just his personality, I think he’s got away with murder for years! If you get after him the behavior escalates! Thats why I don’t think kick chains would help, but maybe hobbles would?

The horse has been getting 3 flakes of hay in the morning (from me feeding), then 2 flakes for lunch when the owner comes out, then she will put 5-6+ flakes in his stall for at night. I end up taking some out so that he has only 3 flakes in his stall at night. Roughly he’s eating 35-40 pounds of hay a day! He’s 16.3 hands, but I’ve also tried to mention to the owner that we have to get on the same feeding schedule and not be over feeding. Her reply was “With his hard workouts he’s been getting lately I want to keep up with his GREAT MUSCLE GAINS that he’s been getting. And since there is no grass or hay out in the pastures he needs more hay.”

So its not a feeding issue… its more behavior.

The horse is also turned out from 7am-7pm, sometimes later during the summer nights.

She would never let him be outside 24/7 because shes scared he would get thrush, even though my pens are fairly dry.

OK, so you have not answered yet, is this a new behavior? Or has he done this since July?

It still might be a feed thing. If he runs out of hay and stands there most of the night very bored, he might find new ways to amuse himself. That is where the small hay net might help.

[joiedevie99]

Wait - you’ve had this horse for 9 months and this problem only started this week? In that case I’d definitely be looking for what has changed - was he ridden less this week? Feed/supplement change?

[anjie218]

@trubandloki

OK, so you have not answered yet, is this a new behavior? Or has he done this since July?

It still might be a feed thing. If he runs out of hay and stands there most of the night very bored, he might find new ways to amuse himself. That is where the small hay net might help.

Its a new behavior with doing it at night. But he always paws in the cross ties, outside, or in his stall if you are in the barn and he knows its feeding time.

I don’t feed usually until 7-8pm, so they are eating most of the night until after 10 usually. The horse should be relaxed by then with a full belly, not pawing!

[anjie218]

@joiedevie99

Wait - you’ve had this horse for 9 months and this problem only started this week? In that case I’d definitely be looking for what has changed - was he ridden less this week? Feed/supplement change?

Yep had it in my barn since July and had no problems during the night. This all just started. Nothing has changed. He’s even getting worked hard during the day, then turned back out until later at night, and still finds the energy to paw. No supplements have changed either. Feed is all the same.

[alibi_18]

@anjie218

She will smack the horse when he paws in the cross ties. I got her to now tie him in the corner of a stall and leave him there while she goes and does something else to make him learn patience. The hitting and yelling doesn’t work, it only makes it 100 times worse for him!

Angry horses like that often had underlying issues, most likely ulcers. His ''viciousness is probably an ingrained behavior by now, but I wouldn’t rule out ulcers. Has he ever been treated? The kicking, biting, nastyness is more than often related to horses that have been hungry for a long time. And the behavior sticks even if he’d be well fed now.

Instead of just hay, maybe he’d do good on a beet pulp mash or hay pellets mash. This horse doesn’t seem to be ‘‘full’’.

Why do you remove his hay at night? Is that when he started pawing too?

[anjie218]

I should also add in, I don’t have a set feeding time. I like a calm barn when I’m in there. I’m never in a rush to feed at night. I usually clean stalls and ride before feeding. If a horse gets too excited and thinks he is going to get fed then I’ll give him some tie time while I’m out there. Only time I feed at a set time is weekdays because I’m going to work. Weekends they all wait a extra 2 hours in the morning before they get fed. Until I hit that barn and open up the doors they are all very calm.

[anjie218]

@alibi_18

Angry horses like that often had underlying issues, most likely ulcers. His ''viciousness is probably an ingrained behavior by now, but I wouldn’t rule out ulcers. Has he ever been treated? The kicking, biting, nastyness is more than often related to horses that have been hungry for a long time. And the behavior sticks even if he’d be well fed now.

Instead of just hay, maybe he’d do good on a beet pulp mash or hay pellets mash. This horse doesn’t seem to be ‘‘full’’.

Why do you remove his hay at night? Is that when he started pawing too?

I only remove the hay and leave him with 3 flakes in his stall. The owner will put half a bale 6+ flakes in there while I’m at work and he’s outside. She thinks he needs that much even though he’s getting a hay belly. He’s very well fed at my place.

I don’t do beet pulp! My vet has done a bunch of surgeries to remove “sludge” that was caused because of beet pulp. She said she would never feed it to her own horse because of how dangerous it is! Another girl at my barn also knows someone that had to have the same surgery done on her horse because of it.

He could have ulcers because of the way his attitude is. He’s always on edge and very very aggressive! I’ve never met a horse that you cannot trust like I have this horse! They gelded him at 5 years old because they could not handle him as a stud.

[joiedevie99]

I’d put his hay in a slow feed net so the same amount takes longer to eat, and ask his owner to have him scoped for ulcers then.

[knic13]

@anjie218

Its a new behavior with doing it at night. But he always paws in the cross ties, outside, or in his stall if you are in the barn and he knows its feeding time.

I don’t feed usually until 7-8pm, so they are eating most of the night until after 10 usually. The horse should be relaxed by then with a full belly, not pawing!

Did the new behavior start when you began removing some of the hay the boarder put out? An already ulcer prone horse would not do well with no hay from 10 pm to whenever you feed in the morning.

A slow feed net seems very appropriate in this situation.

[Angela_Freda]

@anjie218

… since there is no grass or hay out in the pastures he needs more hay."

So its not a feeding issue… its more behavior.

The horse is also turned out from 7am-7pm…

I only remove the hay and leave him with 3 flakes in his stall. The owner will put half a bale 6+ flakes in there while I’m at work and he’s outside. She thinks he needs that much even though he’s getting a hay belly. He’s very well fed at my place.

I don’t do beet pulp! My vet has done a bunch of surgeries to remove “sludge” that was caused because of beet pulp. She said she would never feed it to her own horse because of how dangerous it is! Another girl at my barn also knows someone that had to have the same surgery done on her horse because of it.

He could have ulcers because of the way his attitude is. He’s always on edge and very very aggressive! I’ve never met a horse that you cannot trust like I have this horse! They gelded him at 5 years old because they could not handle him as a stud…

I don’t feed usually until 7-8pm, so they are eating most of the night until after 10 usually.

I don’t have a set feeding time. I like a calm barn when I’m in there. I’m never in a rush to feed at night. I usually clean stalls and ride before feeding. If a horse gets too excited and thinks he is going to get fed then I’ll give him some tie time while I’m out there. Only time I feed at a set time is weekdays because I’m going to work. Weekends they all wait a extra 2 hours in the morning before they get fed. Until I hit that barn and open up the doors they are all very calm.

Honestly it’s hard to tell when they eat and how long they are without from the above, I did my best to piece the info together from your posts…

He could be aggressive and pawing cause he has ulcers from not having anything in his stomach… horses graze like 23 hours a day in nature… being w/o hay from 10 at night until whatever time you get there in the a.m., 7?.. and 2 hours later on weekends… and then all day on turnout until 7 p.m. [in summer?] w/o hay or grass too? … may not suit his needs.

I am a big fan of nibble nets if you are worried about him eating too much, too fast, or being messy/wasting hay

BTW Yo, my TB who was 16HH about 1000#, used to eat a bale of hay a day… and he was not fat.

ETA if you like a calm barn, you might find a routine with set times that the horses can expect ___ to happen, is a path to just that. Not knowing can be very upsetting and stressful.

[Angela_Freda]

You should read Brians post on the ‘how soon should I see my horse gain wt’ thread regarding the importance of chewing, and saliva to resolving/preventing ulcers

ETA he said I could steal it, so here it is… VERY interesting…

@Brian

In the meantime, here’s a link and and some info regarding chewing time…https://kppusa.com/tips-and-topics/chewing-important-part-horses-life/

From the article…

[I][B]Saliva contains bicarbonate, which works to buffer the stomach acids that are produced continuously by the horse. When chewing is limited, gastric acid accumulating in an empty stomach can cause ulcers. The time spent chewing plays an important role in the both the health of the digestive tract and the proper absorption of nutrients.

The type of feed a horse eats greatly affects the time spent chewing. A horse takes about 40 minutes and chews between 3,500 and 4,500 times to consume a thin, two-pound flake of hay. On the other hand, two pounds of oats requires as few as 850 chews and can be consumed in about 10 minutes! Diets high in concentrates (grains/pellets) and low in forages reduce chewing time and disrupt healthy digestion.[/B][/I] [h=4]The type of meals you feed affects chew time[/h]
[I][B]Optimal time chewing: 16 to 17 hours per day

Meal: 18 lbs of hay (nine 2-lb flakes) and no concentrate

Estimated chew time: 360 minutes (6 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 12 hours of chewing

When fed 3 x per day = 18 hours of chewing

Meal: 14 lbs of hay (seven 2-lb flakes) and 2 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 290 minutes (almost 5 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 9 3/4 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 14.5 hours of chewing

Meal: 8 lbs hay (four 2-lb flakes) and 4 lbs concentrate

Estimated chew time: 180 minutes (3 hours)

When fed 2x per day = 6 hours of chewing

When fed 3x per day = 9 hours of chewing[/B][/I]

I’ve found similar results on our horses when checked. It was also interesting how chew time was almost 50% longer for our fat/fiber pellet as opposed to our ration balancer.

The results are our justification as to why we put the amount of effort we do into sourcing the best quality forage we can find, as opposed to just increasing the concentrate to make up for missing calories.

[Garnet_Z]

This is kind of a shot in the dark…but you say he wasn’t gelded until he was five and that this is a new behavior. Is there by any chance a mare in heat in the barn? I have a gelding who showed no studdish behaviors at all when he was kept with geldings (all the mares were further away on the other side of a riding arena). However, I moved to a place with extremely limited horse boarding options and have no choice now but to have him in a paddock with some mares. He’s fine most of the time and I can generally walk/ride him away from them. However, he will get very attached to them for a few days when they are in heat and will paw and whinny if he can’t see them. He doesn’t try to mount them or anything but the scent makes him want to be near them. Some geldings can be a bit studdish, especially if neutered late.

Another thought - there is a sea of mud in my horses’ pasture this time of year and thrush is a concern. I ordered some Keratex spray-on hoof disinfectant as a preventative. Maybe if you suggest something like that she’d be more open to having him on 24-7 turnout.

[Chief2]

Horse behaviors like this usually have causes at their roots. I second the idea of a slow feeder net if you are unwilling to allow her to feed him enough poundage (or flakes–however you see it) of hay to keep him quiet and occupied throughout the night. I would suspect he is definitely bored. I would also suspect that there isn’t enough of a sponge of hay in the lower lined portion of his stomach to keep the acid from splashing up on the unlined walls of the stomach, creating ulcers. By taking away his hay you are not only adding to the problem, shooting yourself in the foot for your pm sleep. Mares in heat would also stir up this activity. I would suggest one of thee paths: let him have his hay, allow the boarder to use a slow feed haynet, or suggest she move her horse to a place with a better fit so everyone wins. jmo.