P.S. I had my horse get a full enchilada work up at WSU in Pullman. No ulcers, nothing wrong with the blood work, etc. The behaviorist talked with me and the best we came up with is the spring grass theory.
The horse was scoped before he got to you, so more than 9 months ago. Since then, heās had a move and management change. If I were the owner, Iād scope again, or at least try a week of full-tube UlcerGuard to see if the behavior changes. Hind gut ulcers canāt be seen on a scope either. Both will be helped by the small hole hay net.
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OP what does your boarding contract say regarding hay and how much is included in the board? Yes, every barn Iāve boarded at has included this little nugget of info and if it doesnāt I amend the contract to include it, as well as grain amounts so there is no confusion.
If the horse is maxing out the amount of hay you feed a day, the easiest thing to do is have the owner pay for the additional hay she wants for her horse. I would be upset as a barn manager if someone was going in my hayloft just getting random amounts of hay for the horse, and not communicating. I see a horse getting fat and think itās what Iām giving and cut him back not knowing the owner was adding extra, plus I calculate by poundage how much every horse eats so I can get my delivery scheduled and not run out of hay with a small hayloft. You really do need to measure by weight though so you can keep a solid record of everything your feeding this horse.
I would move the horse to a small hole hay net overnight and see if that helped. I would probably advise owner for a vet check and start him on Ulcer meds to see if behavior improved.
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OP, why do you not want to use a hay net or other slow feeder? (There are legitimate reasons.)
It does seem like the best place to start with this problem.
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āā¦most of the nightāā is NOT from 7:00 (when you feed) until 10:00. Thatās only three hours.
So Iām confused. Does he paw around 10:00? Or is he pawing at 1 -2 -3 a.m. and waking you up?
Iām also confused by the statement: āThe horse should be relaxed by then with a full belly.ā
When is āby thenā ? Andā¦how many hours do you expect a horse to KEEP this āfull bellyā you mention and stay satisfied and relaxed? The entire night ā until morning feed?
In light of all that, when exactly does he run out of hay? At 10:00? Or in the middle of the night?
And if indeed the pawing is a ālack of hayā problem (which it sounds like to me), a slow feeder net should solve your problem + MORE HAY ā as so many others have suggested to you.
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For the record, I bailed out of a previous barn when I discovered that my mare was being restricted hay. She was going without from approx 8pm-6am, and I was scolded by the BO whenever I fed more hay after my evening rides/visits because she insisted all the horses slept through the night and didnāt need food.
Treated for ulcers at the new barn and she was significantly happier and calmer, in addition to getting all the hay she wanted. The difference in her was immediate and obvious.
You may need to revise your horse-keeping OPā¦ this boy doesnāt seem to be doing well on your program.
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OP, your routine sounds to me like a recipe for a cranky, ulcery horse. I ran a 40-horse barn for about 6 years: I have never known a horse with this description to NOT improve with more or better hay, and more or better turnout.
From your description, it really sounds like the horses in your barn arenāt really getting that much forage. 10pm to 7am is a long time for a horse to go without hay! This horse seems to be telling you that in every possible way.
OP seems to think that horses can and should be trained to wait quietly for their meals, whenever they may come. In my experience, almost all horses are significantly more compliant, more secure, and in general happier when they are kept on a schedule, particularly as pertains to feeding.
We had some āproblemā horses over the years, and since I lived above the stable, pawing at night was a real pain! I get that. But in my experience, hobbles or kicking chains arenāt the answer.
$10 says if you make sure he still has hay after 10pm, the pawing will subside.
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I canāt believe that your first answer is to hobble a horse in a stallā¦ Justā¦ noā¦
I am sure someone else will school you far less kindly than me, but just FYI - not having ulcers at one particular time means NOTHING - they can develop ulcers within the drop of a hat.
A clean scope THEN is void NOW if the horse has:
- moved at any point during the last scope.
- traveled at any point during the last scope.
- had its feed/hay/grain changed at any point during the last scope.
- had its turnout changed at any point during the last scope (including buddy changes, new neighbor, etc)
- had a show at any point during the last scope.
- had been given any bute, previcox, NSAID, or any other COX2-inhibitor at any point during the last scope.
- had its stalled changed, paddock rotated, or any other part of its daily routine disturbed at any point during the last scope.
- had its riding/workload changed at any point during the last scope.
If ANY of the above has happened, then the horse very well could have ulcers. I had one in my care at a boarding barn that developed SIX bloody/pitted ulcers in the span of 2 weeks between scopes. SIX! This horse got 24/7 hay, timothy cubes, was on every ulcer-med known to mankind, and had the best possible care we could provide him.
- moving is VERY stressful to a horse, and he very well may have developed ulcers during the move.
The most frequent symptom of a horse with ulcers? Sensitive sides - that includes pinning their ears when you touch them, blanket them, walk by them, anything. That is a defensive behavior because their stomach hurts, constantly.
Why are you resistant to a hay net? He is obviously pawing because heās bored, hungry. They donāt paw to piss you off, and they donāt paw to keep you up at night.
I think the horse needs to move. I understand your feeding regime and subscribe to a similar ideal for my OWN personal horses, but that is not a standard of care I would ever uphold for people paying me board money.
For me personally, as a horse owner, I find the idea of my horse going without any hay in a stall from 10pm to 6-7AM absolutely unacceptable. That is why my horses are kept at home on a roundbale. I realize that most barns, this is the normā¦ Thatās a long, long time in a tiny box stall with no stimulation or food. Thatās a full shift of work for most people. A full day of school for a kid. Could you spend 7-10 hours every day in a room with no food or stimulation day in, day out, ad eternum?
I certainly couldnāt ā and itās no small wonder horses develop ulcers in that environment.
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This whole post is ridiculous at how you guys are snapping at the fact and not reading the entire thingā¦
The horse gets fed OUTSIDE WITH HIS HAY at 7am. He has a chance to eat his hay as slow or as fast as he wants. Iām NOT taking hay away. He gets roughly 3 flakes in the morning.
The owner also comes out and gives him TWO FLAKES when she rides or works him, again its given OUTSIDE and NOT taken away.
The horse is then brought in after 7pm usually, and is given ANOTHER THREE FLAKES for his nightly feeding.
Roughly the horse is 1200 pounds, and if a horse needs 1-2% of his body weight in hay thats 24 POUNDS of hay a day! The horse is getting at least 3/4 roughly of hay PER DAY, which with a 50 POUND bale thats roughly 37.5 pounds of JUST HAY! Thats not including being grained TWICE a day and getting 6 pounds of grain.
THE HORSE IS NOT STARVING OR HUNGRY! I figured if I feed by 7pm, and he eats one flake per hour, he roughly will have his hay done by 10pm.
Only reason I was taking hay out of his stall is because the owner was putting roughly 25-30# of hay in his stall for JUST HIS NIGHTLY FEEDING! Thats more than half a bale of hay!
So before saying that Iām a horrible barn manager and that I donāt know what Iām doing and that Iām ālimitingā his hay please read the above.
I came here for ideas on how to stop pawing habits. The horse is not hungry and does not need more hay than heās already getting. If the horse was fed anymore with the medium workout schedule heās been gettingā¦ he would be OBESE!
I personally do not think you need to give him MORE hay. I think you need to make his dinner hay last longer. Of course he can eat as fast or as slow as he wants to but ā¦ like some of us human typesā¦ they are not always good at managing stuff like this and he truly has no idea how to say āI have twelve hours that I have to make this hay last so I will eat 1/4 of a flake per hourā.
That is why I suggest a small hole hay net or other slow feeder. It will slow down his eating and allow his hay to last him longer into the night. This will get rid of the middle of the night frustration the horse is having.
Edit to add - Not actually starving and thinking you are starving are two very different things. (Says me who is trying to lose some weight.)
Between 7am and 7pm the horse gets five flakes spread out over two feedings and then three more flakes at 7pm, which you are expecting to keep him content until morning. It is clearly not doing that.
I have asked this before (more than once) - Why are you against a slow feeder?
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Owner is going to order a slow feeding hay net. Only thing Iām worried about is he has shoes on front and back, and if heās already pawing and kicking up to 3+ feet up on his stall Iāll really have to hang the net high so he doesnāt get a foot or shoe caught in it.
I think that the people who are livid that a barn owner would remove hay are probably pain in the butt borders. I canāt imagine someone getting away with dumping a half bale of hay in their horseās stall at night.
Why wouldnāt a barn owner take that away? Why would a boarder think she could do that without asking first?
I think he is eating plenty of hay. I would try to slow down his consumption so it lasts longer.
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That is a reasonable concern.
Hopefully you can come up with a safe configuration.
A bare modicum of google fu turns up more about this poster, and her background. The western pleasure world is so weird. I guess this thing about feeding them so little isnāt uncommon in those circles?
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This is exactly what weāre talking about thoughā¦ having no hay from 10pm until the morning is a really long time :no:.
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So youāre weighing the hay you feed?
I didnāt see anyone suggest he was starving, nor that he was hungry per seā¦ but that an erratic feeding schedule with hay that doesnāt last more than a few hours followed by many, many hours of no hay can lead to ulcers.
Yup, thatās easily what 1100#ish Yo got. Ate it all by morning no problem, no obesity. No ulcers either.
Do you not see that the clarity of the information you shared was part of the disconnect?
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Easy answerā¦
http://www.thinaircanvas.com/nibblenā¦lenetframe.htm
I was skeptical but these things are GREAT. We used one with a horse on layup. Once you get the hang of refilling it, it really is a great hay bag.
HOW MUCH HAY DOES A HORSE NEED ?
Horses are designed to eat constantly and they produce stomach acid constantly. Because hay and saliva together are alkaline, they counteract the stomach acid. āHorses are most content when they can nibble almost all the timeā.
Carolyn R. Simmelink, DVM recommends feeding as much good quality hay as possible and small amounts of grain to keep the horse at the ideal weight.
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OPā¦ Either you do what the owner asks and give him a net or you ask her to leave. She has already told you no chains or hobbles, and you have to respect that. What other answers are you hoping for? If he gets obese, you can talk to the owner about decreasing his GRAIN, not his hay. I would not be taking hay away from a horse that gets 6lb of grainā¦
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To be fair, you did say he did not āhave any grass or hayā in his paddock.
Okay. Hereās his schedule:
7 AM: 3 flakes (lb?) in paddock
Some indeterminate time in the day: 2 flakes (lb?)
7 PM: 3 flakes (lb?)
A horse with okay detention, in my experience, can eat a 4lb flake of hay in less than 30m. A horse with good detention and a good appetite can finish a 5lb flake in that time or less. So usually, 3 flakes would last most horses about an hour.
Soā¦ from8:30ish AM to whatever time the owner comes he has no hay. Then from whatever time the owner leaves to 7pmish, he has no hay. Then from 10 PM to 7 am, he has no hay.
Thatās a lot of time without hay.
By and large, for a 1200lb horse, that is not a lot of hay - and too much time in between feedings.
Iām sorry you are just now realizing how much hay horses actually need - most horses need a bale (50lb) a day. Thatās not cheap and that is WHY board is so expensive! In all my years with horses I have never had a 1200lb horse keep his condition on 1-2% of his body weight. They have always needed closer to 10-20%.
BTW, when I was a BM, this was our schedule:
6 AM: 1 flake (1 flake = 5lb)
6:30 AM: grain
6:45 Turn out
Turn out:
7 AM: 2 flake
11 AM: 2 flakes
2 PM: 1 flake
5PM brought in
5 PM 3 flakes in each stall
5:30 PM grain
7 PM - add flake if any are done
10-10 PM: 2 flakes
All in all, thatās about 10-13 flakes per horse averaging to about 50-65lb, before we consider the horseās actual caloric needs - some horses, especially the heavily competing ones, were given much more than that. So yeah, a bale a day is 100% reasonable.
I think you need to hang up haynets for this horse.
I think itās crazy how little people think a horse should eatā¦ especially some Barn Owners and Managers. It is absolutely unreal. Iāve been on both sides of the coin - actually, all three - Iāve been a BM for other peopleās horses, Iāve been a boarder subject to the whims of a BO, and Iāve also kept my horses at home. A bale a day is nothing and is about what most horses need to eat. Iām sorry if you think that is too much to feed. I know my easy keeper TB needs that AND 6-8lb of grainā¦ before hard work!
BTW, I kept this easy keeper at a barn where the BO was constantly removing his hay that I was supplying him - hay I had permission to supply him, btw. She was also halving his grain (that I purchased) and feeding it to other horses. She was complaining how much hay he was eating and thought 1-4 flakes of hay a day was enough to feed a race-fit TB because āthatās what all the other horses ateā.
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Fu turns? I think the only thing that came up if you googled my name is my instagram. I donāt see anything about my ābackgroundā ??
And the western pleasure world is weird? I donāt just show western pleasure. I have a wide variety of horses in my barn that I care for.
Please stop bashing on this post. Its getting old. I only came here for ideas for the pawing like I said.
