Boarders horse pawing at night

[WNT]

Were I in the BO’s position, unless the HO had cleared with me that the horse could get extra hay, I would be upset. I’ve seen enough hay bills to know that most hay purchases are planned to the bale.

That said, this horse needs. more. hay. As it’s already been stated, not every horse is fine and dandy with 1-2% of body weight of hay. It sounds to me that he goes out in the morning with 3 flakes (how much does each flake weigh?) in a paddock without much grass. If he scarfs that hay down in even 3-4 hours, and his owner doesn’t come out and give him his midday snack of 1-2 flakes, he will spend a good portion of the day with a stomach only sloshing acid around. Same with the overnight: if his hay is gone by 10pm and he doesn’t get more until 7am, again he’s spending a goodly time with stomach acid and nothing else in his belly.

The hay net sounds like a start; perhaps give him a couple of flakes loose to satisfy his immediate hunger, and a couple in the net to last overnight. ETA: if you are concerned about his (over)weight, I would drop his grain and swap to a vitamin/mineral supplement or ration balancer and increase his forage. I would also highly recommend either scoping for ulcers or the week of Ulcergard to test for results. His behavior screams ulcers, and would have me kicking, striking, and generally expressing my discomfort to the world as well.

[IPEsq]

Tying the horse isn’t teaching him to wait without pawing for his dinner. In addition to the overnight hay, things may start to improve if you just throw a flake to everyone when you are out there riding/cleaning. If this is upsetting the horses being ridden, just throw this guy one flake. My horse gets an extra hay feeding at night (alfalfa purchased myself and grass if needed with BO approval), and the other horses don’t give a rat’s rear end that my horse is getting hay and they aren’t (most still have their own hay anyway). It’s just part of the routine.

When my horse was on stall rest, he became a terror at feed time. This wasn’t like him but it was pretty much the only thing he had going on in his day. He was going to cause damage or hurt himself. The barn staff kindly adjusted the feed pattern to feed him first on his aisle (he used to be one of the last). He didn’t learn that if he made a racket he got food. He got food before he got too wound up. Once he was back to a turnout routine, he went back to waiting his turn without all the crazy.

I think that if you just feed this horse he will feel better and quiet down. The less he gets going banging the walls the more it is just the routine and not a lesson of if I bang then food comes. As a HO, I would be livid if my horse was tied unattended. And by that I mean that you being around in another stall or riding your horse does not count as providing necessary attention to a tied horse. Especially one with self destructive tendencies.

I’ve also had to treat for ulcers after my horse’s hay was restricted contrary to the agreement I had with BO/BM. My horse rears and strikes when he has ulcers, among other undesirable behaviors. Feeding more hay seems a whole lot safer, doesn’t it?!

[kremeroyale]

@anjie218

He gets 6 pounds of Tribute Kalm N EZ a day.

@WNT

The hay net sounds like a start; perhaps give him a couple of flakes loose to satisfy his immediate hunger, and a couple in the net to last overnight. ETA: if you are concerned about his (over)weight, I would drop his grain and swap to a vitamin/mineral supplement or ration balancer and increase his forage. I would also highly recommend either scoping for ulcers or the week of Ulcergard to test for results. His behavior screams ulcers, and would have me kicking, striking, and generally expressing my discomfort to the world as well.

Yeah, I was going to say this. Since you have access to Tribute, their Essential K is a good ration balancer. You could cut him down to what, 2 lbs of ration balancer and then add more hay to keep him busy overnight. Plus he would then be getting less starch/sugar overall, which would help his tummy and behavior.

[sdlbredfan]

@IPEsq

Tying the horse isn’t teaching him to wait without pawing for his dinner. In addition to the overnight hay, things may start to improve if you just throw a flake to everyone when you are out there riding/cleaning. If this is upsetting the horses being ridden, just throw this guy one flake. My horse gets an extra hay feeding at night (alfalfa purchased myself and grass if needed with BO approval), and the other horses don’t give a rat’s rear end that my horse is getting hay and they aren’t (most still have their own hay anyway). It’s just part of the routine.

When my horse was on stall rest, he became a terror at feed time. This wasn’t like him but it was pretty much the only thing he had going on in his day. He was going to cause damage or hurt himself. The barn staff kindly adjusted the feed pattern to feed him first on his aisle (he used to be one of the last). He didn’t learn that if he made a racket he got food. He got food before he got too wound up. Once he was back to a turnout routine, he went back to waiting his turn without all the crazy.

I think that if you just feed this horse he will feel better and quiet down. The less he gets going banging the walls the more it is just the routine and not a lesson of if I bang then food comes. As a HO, I would be livid if my horse was tied unattended. And by that I mean that you being around in another stall or riding your horse does not count as providing necessary attention to a tied horse. Especially one with self destructive tendencies.

I’ve also had to treat for ulcers after my horse’s hay was restricted contrary to the agreement I had with BO/BM. My horse rears and strikes when he has ulcers, among other undesirable behaviors. Feeding more hay seems a whole lot safer, doesn’t it?!

This! umpteen times. This is a no-brainer if one a)uses thought in regard to horse-keeping and b)actually cares about the welfare of the horse.

[quietann]

@HealingHeart

This ! Needs hay late at night or deal with colic down the road

I think this is a general issue for anyone that boards or runs a boarding barn. When the boarder ends up with a vet bill because of the BO’s practices, it’s the boarder who pays. I’ve been in this situation a few times - and not at low end barns - and it’s upsetting. We cannot plan for every stupid way in which horses might get into trouble, but there’s still basic horse needs to consider.

Hay’s a problem in a lot of places. It’s expensive, and concentrates are often less so. How much is not enough? How much is too much? Should BOs be responsible for feeding hay in a manner that reduces the occurrence of ulcers? What do you do with the horse who cannot have hay 24/7? (/raises hand, or hoof, here.) Slow feed nets help (and in OP’s case, I don’t understand why she’s opposed!), but might not be enough. (/raises hand again, mare raises hoof because she can get through about 10 pounds of hay in 3 hours, and that is in a 1.25" hole NibbleNet.)

In any case, in OP’s situation, this just sounds like a very bad fit.

[IPEsq]

I will also add that my 17.1hh horse ate 6-7 flakes of grass plus one alfalfa overnight from about 5-6pm to 6-7am while on stall rest (no exercise) and was not overweight. He got 3 flakes grass and one alfalfa around 5-6 and another 4 flakes around 10pm. This was in addition to having hay in front of him at all times during the day. During this time, his concentrates were cut back. Concentrates have been cut back even further since then because his metabolism isn’t going quite at breakneck speed anymore. It’s more important that he has forage available at all times based on his propensity for ulcers. And he doesn’t even need a bad one to start rearing. He does that with grade 1 that you have to look really hard to see on the scope.

[Dressagelvr]

This thread is just amazing. Let me see if I have this straight.

The horse developed a new behavior that shows he is in distress

The first thoughts of this BO are tying and hobbling the horse

Nobody calls the vet or even thinks that this new behavior might signal that the horse is uncomfortable.

​Knowing, as any competent horse person does, that horses need free choice hay/grass at all times (unless they have a metabolic issue), the owner attempts to give more than the 3 flakes the BO has arbitrarily decided are all the horse can have.

BO, full of righteous indignation, declares that no horse needs more than three flakes at night and removes the hay.

​​​​​​BO randomly ties horse in stall. May or may have not disclosed to owner.

At some vague time in past, horse was scoped and deemed ulcer free for life.

Problems continue as BO steadfastly refuses to provide additional hay.

BO posts here and continues to vigorously defend her position despite receiving some excellent advice.

Poor horse continues to suffer.
​​
Do I have this right?

Head/desk.

[ladyj79]

It sounded even more odd because she didn’t really say three flakes were all the horse needs, she said the horse needed to be done eating at 10pm, and removes any remaining hay at 10pm.

Really. Odd.

ETA It kind of reminds me of when my trainer whom I was also involved with would bring me coffee in the morning. But if I hadn’t finished it in what he viewed an appropriate time frame ie before it was cold he would literally pick it up and throw it on the ground or against a wall while yelling at me that I didn’t appreciate it…because that’s a totally reasonable response to people not eating or drinking fast enough.

[candyappy]

@enjoytheride

I just can’t get over how many boarders seem to think that they should be allowed to feed their horse whatever they want and that they would “go off” if the barn owner removed extra hay.

Barns are budgeted to feed a certain amount of hay per horse. Many barns allow extra hay to be fed for an extra charge. I have never seen a single barn that would let the boarders willy nilly feed as much hay as they want and I’ve seen probably a hundred threads on this BB talking about it.

Boarder is stealing hay and has apparently not actually asked if horse needs it, or if he’s just pooping on it. Yet the boarder should be livid? It isn’t uncommon for a boarder to not know what their horse needs to be fed. It’s why people board.

Barn owner seems to be doing the right thing by asking for a slow feed net.

Also, how many people on this BB would not allow their horse to be turned out with another with hind shoes? How is that the barn owner’s problem now?

As far as tying, I have no issue with my horse being tied provided it has been discussed as a possibility beforehand.

People are being ridiculous!

People board their horses for a variety of reasons and some are quite capable of knowing how much hay their horse needs. At 16.3 this horse needs more than 3 flakes of hay to get through the hours of 12am-7am. I have had multiple horses who could easily wolf down half a bale overnight, stay in good weight and waste nothing. They were big horses too at 16.2-17 hands.

If you are a BO then you should " budget" to feed a horse what it needs. Of course a small horse will eat less than a big one but we don’t charge board based on that. If a horse requires a ridiculous amount to stay in good flesh that is one thing , but this particular horse is not that kind.

I would be livid as a boarder if my horse was not given the hay he required and 6 flakes for a 8+ hour period is not too much especially when this horse gets limited forage during the day time.

Since so many threads on here are due to BO’s not willing to feed hay it seems we are seeing a serious trend here with limiting the very thing our horses need the most-- adequate hay and so many on here are fine with that??

I sure hope this horse does well with a net.

[sdlbredfan]

@Dressagelvr

This thread is just amazing. Let me see if I have this straight.

The horse developed a new behavior that shows he is in distress

The first thoughts of this BO are tying and hobbling the horse

Nobody calls the vet or even thinks that this new behavior might signal that the horse is uncomfortable.

​Knowing, as any competent horse person does, that horses need free choice hay/grass at all times (unless they have a metabolic issue), the owner attempts to give more than the 3 flakes the BO has arbitrarily decided are all the horse can have.

BO, full of righteous indignation, declares that no horse needs more than three flakes at night and removes the hay.

​​​​​​BO randomly ties horse in stall. May or may have not disclosed to owner.

At some vague time in past, horse was scoped and deemed ulcer free for life.

Problems continue as BO steadfastly refuses to provide additional hay.

BO posts here and continues to vigorously defend her position despite receiving some excellent advice.

Poor horse continues to suffer.
​​
Do I have this right?

Head/desk.

You have summarized it beautifully. I agree with the ‘poor horse’ and ‘headdesk’ sentiments.

I did some googling, and I believe the OP (original poster) is in or near Midland Michigan. If anyone reading this lives in that area, perhaps they know the horse’s owner. That owner might be happy to know that 99% of those posting in this thread agree that the horse needs more hay, and the BO’s actions and plans are sucky, and detrimental to the horse’s overall health and wellbeing. (It is so rare for there to be a consensus on CoTH, but this is one of those cases.)

[Simkie]

@Dressagelvr

Do I have this right?

I think you missed where the BO is SO CONCERNED about the horse’s well being–HE MIGHT HURT HIMSELF PAWING! HE MIGHT HURT HIMSELF ON THE HAY BAG!–but then really, really wants to tie his legs together overnight because there’s obviously absolutely NO RISK to him that way. That odd piece of cognitive dissonance is important, I think.

But yeah, other than that one oversight, it’s a pretty good summary :lol:

[Dressagelvr]

Simkie, thanks for correcting my glaring oversight!

[Angela_Freda]

@Dressagelvr

This thread is just amazing. Let me see if I have this straight.

The horse developed a new behavior that shows he is in distress

The first thoughts of this BO are tying and hobbling the horse

Nobody calls the vet or even thinks that this new behavior might signal that the horse is uncomfortable.

​Knowing, as any competent horse person does, that horses need free choice hay/grass at all times (unless they have a metabolic issue), the owner attempts to give more than the 3 flakes the BO has arbitrarily decided are all the horse can have.

BO, full of righteous indignation, declares that no horse needs more than three flakes at night and removes the hay.

​​​​​​BO randomly ties horse in stall. May or may have not disclosed to owner.

At some vague time in past, horse was scoped and deemed ulcer free for life.

Problems continue as BO steadfastly refuses to provide additional hay.

BO posts here and continues to vigorously defend her position despite receiving some excellent advice.

Poor horse continues to suffer.
​​
Do I have this right?

Head/desk.

Pretty good rendition, but add that the horse was scoped and cleared of ulcers [for life] about 9 months ago before coming to OPs barn.

[keysfins]

Is it just coincidence that one of the COTH ads between posts is for “Dandy Products, Inc.—Kick pads and custom wall padding for stalls and trailers” ??

I have a feeling that the OP will not be back to post. But I do hope that, as a BO, s/he has learned from this thread. And I hope that the horse has a haynet by now, or will be going to a facility that better meets his needs.

[csaper58]

@ladyj79

It sounded even more odd because she didn’t really say three flakes were all the horse needs, [B]she said the horse needed to be done eating at 10pm, and removes any remaining hay at 10pm.

Really. Odd.[/B]

I believe the BO lives adjacent to the barn?

My guess is the BO is a very light sleeper and wants all the horses to stand as still as possible and not make any noise at night. so all ‘stimuli’ are removed. We have all seen how horses can zone out when they know they are powerless to change their circumstances.

The barn owner wants a barn full of quiet, zoned out, (sleeping? :no: ) horses so she can unwind and sleep at night.

The horse in question wants food and is making it’s wants known. If one horse gets hay, all the rest of the horses will want hay. That will effect the hay bill, and the horses will all rustle about making noise.

So the hungry horse is tied and hobbled instead of being fed.

[MyKindaFlower]

I’m not sure that hay is removed at 10? I think it is just that the OP estimates that the horses have all finished eating by about 10 because if they each get 3 flakes of hay at 7 that lasts about 3 hours. At least that’s how I read it… I also don’t think that she currently hobbles any horses - only that she was thinking that may be a solution here.

My horses can consume a flake of hay in minutes - in fact, my big guy can eat a flake of hay in under 10 minutes if it’s not in a slow-feed net so 3 flakes of hay, would last him under an hour and he would start to raise a ruckus at some point too.

For the OP, maybe most of the horses in her barn are slow eaters and there is a chance that the other horses in her care do fine on that schedule. It certainly is a common way to feed, at least at many of the boarding facilities in my area, heavier on the concentrates and light on the hay. Actually, that’s a big part of why I bought land and moved my horses home because I feed lots and lots of hay and a handful of concentrates and that works best for my horses.

It would seem that OP’s feeding schedule does not work for this horse and it would be best for all involved if this horse were to be moved to a facility that provides forage more often and if he were to have a vet check to rule out ulcers, Lyme, PSSM, etc.

[ladyj79]

@MyKindaFlower

I’m not sure that hay is removed at 10? I think it is just that the OP estimates that the horses have all finished eating by about 10 because if they each get 3 flakes of hay at 7 that lasts about 3 hours. At least that’s how I read it… I also don’t think that she currently hobbles any horses - only that she was thinking that may be a solution here.

I kind of hate you because I just had to go back and reread. And it was way worse the second time.

but you are correct: she takes hay away from the horse before he even gets back in his box from his 12hr turn out with no food. Because the owner gives six flakes!!! She then maybe feeds them after cleaning boxes and riding if they are quiet cause she likes a quiet barn!!! (And exclamation points)

I am presuming horses aren’t really hayed in the am as she turns out before going to work, and there’s–again–no grass.

but not very much mud!!! So that’s cool.

And the horse doesn’t have ulcers!!! Although she specifically says she’s worried this behaviour will cause ulcers. Before she emphatically States he doesn’t have ulcers.

I’m fairly certain I now have ulcers.

[MyKindaFlower]

Sorry that you had to reread everything because of me, LadyJ. Not to further irritate your developing ulcers, but I believe the OP feeds the morning hay outside in the morning. So, if I understand correctly, she probably dishes out the grain in the AM and then turns the horses out right afterwards with their hay, I think 3 flakes each? Then this horse gets another 1 or 2 flakes at some point in the day when his owner comes to ride him but I don’t know if the other horses get a lunch hay or not. Lastly, the horses get something like 3 flakes in the stalls when they come in at about 7. Yes, the horse owner leaves something like 5 or 6 flakes but the OP removes all but 3 flakes, although I’m not clear about whether or not the OP has let the horse’s owner know she removes the additional hay.

To be fair to the OP, the way she feeds is a fairly common thing in my neck of the woods and she was probably taught her husbandry practices by someone that she admires and/or respects. It must work for many easy-going, slow-eating horses because it is a common way to feed, but this doesn’t sound like an easy-going horse and a lot of horses don’t eat anything slowly. There are a lot of people who are against hay nets and some reasons are valid. I’ve heard concerns about dust and respiratory health, a horse catching a shoe/leg in it, and even that it can cause neck arthritis. However, for horses that can’t be fed small amounts many times a day and can’t be out on pasture, small-hole hay nets can be a really good compromise and they are something that I use both in my stall and out in the paddocks. It may be hard for the OP to come to terms with using them in her barn though if she has only experiences the negatives of hay nets.

When I read her posts, it sounds to me like the OP is frustrated by this particular horse in general and it just seems like a bad fit all the way around.

[OuttaShape]

This thread made me do a triple-take, because I was in a very similar situation as the HO last fall. OP - just ask them to move, it’s going to best for all of you.

By the time I left, my former BO would only give my horse 1 scoop (roughly 2.5lbs) of Kalm & EZ twice a day, he was turned out with a very stemmy round bale during the day, and was limited to 2 flakes of hay at night. My horse went down two saddle sizes last summer due to the weight loss (started with a tape worm, and he couldn’t gain any weight back on this limited amount of groceries). I was bringing him soaked alfalfa pellets and beet at night and paying for rice bran, oil, flax to be added and he STILL wasn’t getting back to his previous weight. He was pawing and calling to anyone who walked by. Previously, the BO had allowed me to throw extra hay at night for him, as he was always out of hay for the night by the time I arrived at 6:30pm and we had no issues with weight. I offered to pay for extra hay and was told that was not possible.

BTW, the recommended feeding guidelines for a 1000lb horse in medium work is 8-12lbs of Kalm and EZ per day. It sounds like this horse in question isn’t getting even that much, and he’s bigger than my 1000lb, 15.2 Morgan.

I was so tired of being told by the BO that my horse was SUCH a “hard keeper”, and felt terrible that I could see that he was still hungry when I arrived with his soaked nighttime snack. We moved, and my horse is calm, shiny, and healthy. He has regained all the weight he lost and even gotten bigger because he suddenly muscled up - new saddle and new winter blankets were required within 2 months of arriving at our new place. For reference, he’s now eating 1 full scoop (roughly 2.5lbs) of senior feed twice a day, more than half a bale of hay at night (so 25-30lbs), and at least half a bale when he’s turned out during the day. He doesn’t need any of the extra fat supplements I was previously supplying. Again, I have a Morgan - as easy a keeper as you’re ever going to find. I would imagine a bigger horse in regular work could easily need far more hay.

So really OP, if you aren’t able/willing to change your care for this horse, encourage them to go. I know my BO was annoyed that I was requesting more hay and feed, and she took it as criticism of her barn management. We are all happier that I changed barns.

[ladyj79]

If you really meant it, it would read

@MyKindaFlower

Sorry that you had to reread everything because of me, LadyJ. !!!

:lol::lol::lol: !!!

but that much enthusiasm is kind of exhausting.