Boarding stables and the ADA

[clanter]

[QUOTE=EAH;7972632]
That sinks not only need area around them but a height and the pipe needs to be PVC or wrapped. Doors can require only a certain amount of pressure to open. Welcome to regulations.[/QUOTE]

That reg has been around since the 1980’s. Mary Kay Inc. headquarters in Addison, TX found out the hard way. They bought the building that is their current headquarters which had been an asset of the Resolution Trust after the Saving and Loan collapse… paid 30 cents on the dollar for this wonderful building. Building had never had a CO issued and upon inspection ALL of the restrooms were not complaint… cost $20 million dollars to rip them out and replace, and a year of construction time.

[SarahandSam]

I believe the distinction between private and public barn is important here.

A public training/lesson barn means anyone can come in and request lessons, in which case ADA standards probably apply, because it’s akin to a restaurant or a business–doors are open. During business hours, anyone can walk in and not be hit with a trespassing charge.

A private boarding barn seems more akin to someone renting out an apartment because his or her house. I don’t believe in that case that ADA laws apply, because I don’t think most landlords are required to make every apartment handicapped-accessible. Someone can’t just come in off the street; it’s private property.

[clanter]

The private/public thing may be a point, but if they are soliciting for lesions they may have breeched the gap. Also if they show horses across state lines they may have to come under Federal laws as then they are involve in interstate commerce

Just depends on how much of sink a prosecutor wants to make… look at he bakery deal in Colorado if you think things cannot get out of hand quickly

[bambam]

[QUOTE=Sswor;7972736]
Unless you are zoned commercial, no, you don’t have to be ADA compliant. And no one is going to build a barn in a commercial zone. For starters, you can’t.

No need to get hysterical about “overbearing” regulations, EAH.[/QUOTE]
whether the ADA applies is not dependent on what your local zoning laws are. That may be a factor in determining whether it is a public accomodation but the ADA is not based on zoning laws

[trubandloki]

Heck, most barns do not even have a real toilet let alone an ADA compliant space.

[QUOTE=clanter;7972816]
That reg has been around since the 1980’s. Mary Kay Inc. headquarters in Addison, TX found out the hard way. They bought the building that is their current headquarters which had been an asset of the Resolution Trust after the Saving and Loan collapse… paid 30 cents on the dollar for this wonderful building. Building had never had a CO issued and upon inspection ALL of the restrooms were not complaint… cost $20 million dollars to rip them out and replace, and a year of construction time.[/QUOTE]

$20 million dollars and years construction means they did quite a bit more than make some toilet rooms ADA compliant.

[clanter]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7972956]
Heck, most barns do not even have a real toilet let alone an ADA compliant space.

$20 million dollars and years construction means they did quite a bit more than make some toilet rooms ADA compliant.[/QUOTE]

no they actually had to rip them all out and rebuild… multiple story building (15?) that was a shell never finished out … all of the plumbing had to relocated and the restrooms had to be expanded; even though they still got a $120M building for $45M… and it was already in Pink granite

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=clanter;7973060]
no they actually had to rip them all out and rebuild… multiple story building (15?) that was a shell never finished out … all of the plumbing had to relocated and the restrooms had to be expanded; even though they still got a $120M building for $45M… and it was already in Pink granite[/QUOTE]

They chose to rip them all and rebuild.

Making/adding ADA toilet rooms is something I actually know something about.

If the existing foot print could not accommodate the required fixture count with two stalls being turned into one ADA fixture then the need for ADA can be accommodated by adding an ADA single room or two (or however many are required to meet the necessary fixture count of the floor). Probably not as pretty as what they wanted though so… go with the remove and redo.

But I am sure the renovation looked lovely and was well worth it.

[Highflyer]

I would guess a barn could get by with a handicapped Port-a-pot? We always rent at least one for our horse trials.

[kirbydog]

I was involved with the building of a brand new barn west of Chicago. Hubby was GC. We were required by code to make it wheelchair friendly, since the BO told the county that it would be a boarding facility. Not a huge deal, just ramps, wide doors, handicap parking. We made the aisles extra wide, which was actually great.

The present facility is about 30 yrs old, and was not designed to be handicap access. However, we did a massive remodel last summer, and since we have a TR program here, we tweaked the plans a bit to make it wheel chair friendly.

[EAH]

[QUOTE=kirbydog;7973487]
I was involved with the building of a brand new barn west of Chicago. Hubby was GC. We were required by code to make it wheelchair friendly, since the BO told the county that it would be a boarding facility. Not a huge deal, just ramps, wide doors, handicap parking. We made the aisles extra wide, which was actually great.

The present facility is about 30 yrs old, and was not designed to be handicap access. However, we did a massive remodel last summer, and since we have a TR program here, we tweaked the plans a bit to make it wheel chair friendly.[/QUOTE]

So were you required to do this because you have a boarding facility or due to the TR program?

[kirbydog]

At the farm we built, we were required to do it, as it was a commercial boarding facility. We had to pass inspections for it. At the remodel, we chose to do it for the TR program, and to save ourselves from trouble further on down the road.

I’m not an expert in building codes, but I think I remember that our current GC told us that since this was an older, existing, facility it was grandfathered in. But when we did the remodel, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

[EAH]

What do you consider the difference between a “commercial” boarding barn and a “private” barn that advertises for boarders to the general public?

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;7971991]
What nobody has mentioned is that there’s no “ADA compliance inspections” or anything along those lines. Literally the only way to enforce compliance regulations is to sue, or be driven by the fear of a lawsuit. [/QUOTE]

Yes there is!!! Occupational Therapist or even Occupational therapy Assistants are trained for inspections. Most can go through your facilities and make a report of what is not up to code.

[AmarachAcres]

[QUOTE=EAH;7973633]
What do you consider the difference between a “commercial” boarding barn and a “private” barn that advertises for boarders to the general public?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about legally, but here is my answer:

Commercial: Primary point of the property is to make money. Training, lessons, boarding, shows, etc… It is a business and probably registered as one. If you no longer wanted to run a business or it stopped making money it would most likely be sold.

Private: Boarding or training is to simply supplement the life style. Help cover some of your own costs. This is where we fall. We pay taxes on all income but we really just board to have company and some extra income for repairs/upgrades.

[EAH]

[QUOTE=AmarachAcres;7973751]
I don’t know about legally, but here is my answer:

Commercial: Primary point of the property is to make money. Training, lessons, boarding, shows, etc… It is a business and probably registered as one. If you no longer wanted to run a business or it stopped making money it would most likely be sold.

Private: Boarding or training is to simply supplement the life style. Help cover some of your own costs. This is where we fall. We pay taxes on all income but we really just board to have company and some extra income for repairs/upgrades.[/QUOTE]

How would this be determined when deciding who is subject to the ADA rules? I do not think they look at your income statement.

[PeanutButterPony]

http://ribbonsandredtape.blogspot.com/2012/07/ada-compliance-at-stable.html

Are small businesses held to the same accessibility standards as big businesses?

The ADA requires that all businesses remove architectural barriers in existing facilities when it is “readily achievable” to do so. Readily achievable means “easily accomplishable without much difficulty or expense.” This requirement is based on the size and resources of a business. So, according to the U.S. Department of Justice, businesses with more resources are expected to do more than businesses with fewer resources.

As with anything in the government, if they elect to enforce it, they can ‘expect’ you to comply.

After all, it’s not Hillary’s fault if the business owner is under-capitalized.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=2enduraceriders;7973652]
Yes there is!!! Occupational Therapist or even Occupational therapy Assistants are trained for inspections. Most can go through your facilities and make a report of what is not up to code.[/QUOTE]

Right, but it’s not like some random OT is just going to pull into your driveway one day and demand a tour of the facility for their report, the way a health inspector or a fire and safety official can in other areas of the business world.

[2enduraceriders]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;7973836]
Right, but it’s not like some random OT is just going to pull into your driveway one day and demand a tour of the facility for their report, the way a health inspector or a fire and safety official can in other areas of the business world.[/QUOTE]
Correct, usually someone has asked for it to be done. Yet they are specifically trained and capable of doing an inspection.

[Tuffytown]

I would suspect that there is some relationship between zoning and building type and accommodation. Commercial zoning is assumed to be developed to a size, scale and most importantly usage category that triggers all sorts of requirements of egress, life safety measures, fire suppression etc that is not required of lesser uses.

Same regulation thresholds that make the building requirements different for a private residence, a duplex or tri-plex (which obviously can be rented so a commercial venture) and large scale multi family vs large scale commercial public usage. There’s lots of different requirements based of user capacity and type of use.

If you build a house on commercial zoning (which they generally don’t encourage) You don’t have to build it to commercial standards but to the standards required by r-3 usage. If you build a commercial venture above a certain user capacity say on rural property you are probably going to have to get a zoning conditional use permit (your usage is not outright allowed by the zoning) and you will need to build to the standards of your building type.

[Lord_Helpus]

Would it be legal for a boarding barn to refuse someone (e.g.) in a wheelchair, or using crutches or was blind, because of safety reasons? A barn is not the same as Best Buy or a hotel. There is inherent danger inside that barn.

If a horse goes flying back on the crossties and gets loose, someone in a wheelchair or is blind, and so cannot know which way to move to be safe, is definitely a safety concern.

No, I am (obviously) not handicapped, nor do I know anyone handicapped who is trying to board in a non compliant barn ---- but it seems to me that our equality laws have become so onerous that a small business might not be financially (split infinitive) able to comply.

What about businesses like dry cleaners. Do they have to comply with every ADA requirement? If so, a lot of dry cleaners would be out of business.