Bob McDonald Banned from USEF through Safe Sport

[ladyj79]

I dont think “we” do know how safe sport works, or at least “we” feign ignorance a lot when constructing “arguments” against safe sport.

[ladyj79]

Also since the hack is navigating coth cripplingly slow and painful for everyone else, or just me?

[TheMoo]

@ladyj79

Also since the hack is navigating coth cripplingly slow and painful for everyone else, or just me?

It’s not just you.

@NewYork_Marx I guess I’m confused as to why you highlighted the last part. That part is why I don’t trust his motivation and think it’s in line with Athletes For Equity.

I’m also confused why I need to be careful. I stand by my opinion of his motivation.

[OverandOnward]

@NotGrandPrixYet

… If he is so certain that SS has gone too far, then let the arbitration play out. If he’s right and they reverse the decision, then he will have strong evidence for his letter. This way if SS is right yet again, then RD and the others only bring suspicion upon themselves.

Agreed.

I think one of the sore spots that is energizing people who have standing in the USEF, and associate closely with many others who are key players in the sport, is that people who are their favorites are being publicly embarrassed by why the ban was imposed. Again I speculate that if SS were sticking to lesser-known players, Dover et. al. would pay no attention at all. But SS is taking favorites away from the horse show parties.

I have no problem with anyone improving a process, especially one that has such a heavy fall weight when it does come down. But Dover et. al. need to be publicly sensitive to the other side of these bans to avoid being seen themselves as ‘supporters of child molestors’. They need to be aware that they themselves are not monolithic, that they, too, can be tainted, by their own statements and actions. Fairly or unfairly. Because that’s how public perception works when someone goes to bat for an accused party after an extensive investigation held up the accusations of child molesting.

Dover is not acknowledging that the sport has a problem. And that’s a problem. Because it does. And has for a very long time - probably always.

Dover has not balanced his concerns with recommendations on behalf of the survivors. He advocates only for the accused. He comes across as ignoring, even dismissing, the survivors and their place in the process. That’s a problem.

Dover is not acknowledging that those reporting have credible reasons for reporting. That’s a huge problem.

Why does he think they are coming forward, if he’s decided that none of the reports are true? I can only surmise that he and others in denial must believe that the sport is running rampant with hysterical lying accusers who are pinging one powerful male icon after another off their pedestals, just because they can, in these hysterical over-reactive metoo times. And that SS has also fallen down the hysteria rabbit hole.

And the deniers want changes to defend against this wave of public hysteria - not to advocate for survivors. Because they say these accusations just aren’t true. The reporters are not ‘survivors’, they are … something else, fill in the blank. That’s how the statements of Dover and others in his lane come across to me.

I’d be very interested to hear exactly why Dover thinks these accusations-leading-to-bans are happening in the context of SS. But if I were his publicist, I’d take away his keyboard to stop him from answering that - although that’s speculation on my part, just based on the tone of his objections to SS.

And what does it say about our whole sport that it took an outside agency like SS to turf out 60+ years of hidden abuse. The accusations don’t go back even further only because we’re reaching the limits of living memory. That’s a horrifying picture of the culture of equestrian sport.

Dover and others of long-standing prominence who are challenging SS have been part of the denial for decades. And now they want to continue to keep that rug tamped down over everything that’s been swept under it.

@TheMoo

Part of a lot of people’s problem with RD (and this is mine) was his brief go fund me to help GHM. If this latest post and letter was stand alone, sure maybe he really does feel that way. Especially after the promo video he made for the USEF about Safe Sport. However, in light of his comments and actions wrt to GHM, I feel his questioning of Safe Sport does not come from a good place. He’s not dumb enough to act like DC and BN, but I think he’s in that same circle.

Many agree. And the fact that people are coming away with this impression should be of deep concern to Dover and those aligning themselves with him. Regardless of the merit of Dover’s concerns, they need to be aware that the impression they make could drive a wedge between themselves and a large segment of the sport who believe the survivors. A wedge that will matter a great deal over time. They may think they are invincible, but it will be an ugly process to find out that they are not.

[OverandOnward]

@ladyj79

Also since the hack is navigating coth cripplingly slow and painful for everyone else, or just me?

Today it is, but not before, for me.

[jvanrens]

@OverandOnward

Today it is, but not before, for me.

Yesterday and today for me, until now anyway…

[FitzE]

@jvanrens

Yesterday and today for me, until now anyway…

Ever since it returned for me.

[TheMoo]

I get kicked off too every time I go from internet to cell service on my phone. When my phone hooks back up to my house internet, I have to log back in.

[jvanrens]

@TheMoo

I get kicked off too every time I go from internet to cell service on my phone. When my phone hooks back up to my house internet, I have to log back in.

Did you share this in the technical help forum? There’s a thread going about problems you should share this in.

I’m just being patient figuring there’s upgrades going on causing the slowness issues, but yours sounds like something they should know about.

[TheMoo]

@jvanrens

Did you share this in the technical help forum? There’s a thread going about problems you should share this in.

I’m just being patient figuring there’s upgrades going on causing the slowness issues, but yours sounds like something they should know about.

I will if it persists beyond today.

[Carolinadreamin]

@BigMama1

I’m going to say it again - if you haven’t done so already, watch Athlete A on Netflix. If you have a strong stomach, watch the Epstein documentary too, but Athlete A really brings I to sharp focus what happens when a sport enables and ignores the abuse of minors,

I was searching the forums here, looking for just the right spot to post that everyone involved in the horse world (and not just the horse world) should watch “Athlete A”. I just finished watching it.

[OverandOnward]

@Carolinadreamin'

I was searching the forums here, looking for just the right spot to post that everyone involved in the horse world (and not just the horse world) should watch “Athlete A”. I just finished watching it.

Will watch.

Listened to the podcast Believed. Gut-wrenching.

I truly believe that some predators pick a sport solely because it is a fertile source of victims for them, and Nassar was one. He didn’t care about gymnastics or the athletes. Only his own gratification. The rest of his schtick was all grooming, at which he excelled.

There is no doubt that there are Nassar-like predators attaching themselves to horse sport today. Not as a doctor/therapist as he did, but the same sort of grooming of their entire community to believe that they are heroic and indispensable.

[mountainbells]

Seems like Athlete A is only on Netflix unfortunately for those of us who don’t have Netflix… Hopefully it gets into wider circulation.

[NotGrandPrixYet]

@NewYork_Marx

Maybe don’t speak for Robert Dover, there are a lot of reasons he could be saying these things. I don’t assume he knows dirt on Bob McDonald and is covering up. We just don’t know anything. Here is his orig. post again, he talks about due process being his main concern

Dover’s World

August 6, 2019 ·

I’ve known George since I was a kid myself and actually met Robert Ross at Hunterdon in 1988 when Robert was 22. He was there for his second time for a week-long training session and George was kind enough to give him a room to stay in. Robert was and still is very handsome but asked if George was ever inappropriate with him either time he was there, he will tell you NEVER. George will say, like most men his or even my age, the 70’s especially were a crazy time and men and women, gay and straight, did crazy things. It was not called the “sexual revolution” for nothing. But retroactively attempting to judge one’s behavior in today’s world based on those times, what was for instance, going on in Studio 54 or Studio 1, is not only impossible but is unfair.
Now, rape is rape, regardless of the decade in which it happened and anyone found guilty of it should be charged with the crime. But something deemed “sexual abuse” today, brought by an accuser who may themselves be worthy of a stronger look into their behavior and who most likely would have to have been alone when this allegedly took place, put into the context of almost 50 years ago, is setting up a precedent for disaster. I hate that my friend, George, is going through this but it is even bigger than George and so in standing with George, I am standing up for the rights of us all and calling for Safe Sport to be overhauled. We need to protect our youth and all our athletes in sports but with a correct system using the rule of law and due process. DUE PROCESS is the point of my post. It is most certainly not meant to promote the idea that a victim should ever be victimized for coming forward. Nor should they feel shame in any way. Our American laws provide that everyone in innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. A lifetime suspension without a trial, no less a conviction, is antithetical to our American ideals.

Our laws don’t cover it if that statute of limitations (10 years) has passed, and RD should know that.

[NotGrandPrixYet]

@OverandOnward

Will watch.

Listened to the podcast Believed. Gut-wrenching.

I truly believe that some predators pick a sport solely because it is a fertile source of victims for them, and Nassar was one. He didn’t care about gymnastics or the athletes. Only his own gratification. The rest of his schtick was all grooming, at which he excelled.

There is no doubt that there are Nassar-like predators attaching themselves to horse sport today. Not as a doctor/therapist as he did, but the same sort of grooming of their entire community to believe that they are heroic and indispensable.

I can’t watch it. PTSD.

[BigMama1]

@NewYork_Marx

Maybe don’t speak for Robert Dover, there are a lot of reasons he could be saying these things. I don’t assume he knows dirt on Bob McDonald and is covering up. We just don’t know anything. Here is his orig. post again, he talks about due process being his main concern

Dover’s World

August 6, 2019 ·

I’ve known George since I was a kid myself and actually met Robert Ross at Hunterdon in 1988 when Robert was 22. He was there for his second time for a week-long training session and George was kind enough to give him a room to stay in. Robert was and still is very handsome but asked if George was ever inappropriate with him either time he was there, he will tell you NEVER. George will say, like most men his or even my age, the 70’s especially were a crazy time and men and women, gay and straight, did crazy things. It was not called the “sexual revolution” for nothing. But retroactively attempting to judge one’s behavior in today’s world based on those times, what was for instance, going on in Studio 54 or Studio 1, is not only impossible but is unfair.
Now, rape is rape, regardless of the decade in which it happened and anyone found guilty of it should be charged with the crime. But something deemed “sexual abuse” today, brought by an accuser who may themselves be worthy of a stronger look into their behavior and who most likely would have to have been alone when this allegedly took place, put into the context of almost 50 years ago, is setting up a precedent for disaster. I hate that my friend, George, is going through this but it is even bigger than George and so in standing with George, I am standing up for the rights of us all and calling for Safe Sport to be overhauled. We need to protect our youth and all our athletes in sports but with a correct system using the rule of law and due process. DUE PROCESS is the point of my post. It is most certainly not meant to promote the idea that a victim should ever be victimized for coming forward. Nor should they feel shame in any way. Our American laws provide that everyone in innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. A lifetime suspension without a trial, no less a conviction, is antithetical to our American ideals.

What is sexual abuse of a minor today was still sexual abuse of a minor 50 years ago, period.

RD was not pretending GM isn’t guilty here - he perpetuated the party line that it was one incident 50 years ago (proven untrue) and that those were “different times” so whatever abuses he committed back then don’t really count. Except we know they very much do count, as far as the victim is concerned.

This is precisely the context that made his comments about BM so unpalatable. Instead of blistering about due process which doesn’t even apply to the situation, why not take an unequivocal stance against the abuse of minors in our sport?

[Jenerationx]

Was it ok to stick a dick in a minor 50 years ago?

I don’t care what decade someone was inappropriate with a child, they should no longer be around children from the minute there is a credible report until they die. End of story.

You also realize that just because someone is a predator doesn’t mean they prey on every single child they come across, right? It’s like any predator that takes down prey animals, they seek the ones that are most vulnerable and easy targets, they ones most likely to not expose them. So RD’s claim that his hot hubby wasn’t molested just means he was healthy enough to not look like easy prey.

Someone needs to buy RD and every else questioning why some of this takes decades to come out a big clue.

[FitzE]

One other detail about RD’s statement: it perpetuates the myth that credible victims are those who conform to prevailing beauty standards. It’s the basis of the, “S/he’s lying, I never touched her/him, s/he isn’t even my type/just look at her/him,” BS defense. It also ignores the fact that often predators choose less conventionally attractive targets b/c they are potentially more vulnerable to that type of attention and they also believe they are not thought of as attractive and so they understand they are less likely to be believed as the object of sexual attention if they consider reporting.

It’s actually really shocking and repulsive that he mentions someone’s handsomeness as proof that if they weren’t preyed upon then no one was. Someone of RD’s age and position should have way more intelligence than that (or at least the sense not to post crap like that publicly even if that is what they think).

[DownYonder]

Re: Dover’s statement (which I hadn’t read before this thread):

1. Dover doesn’t say he himself wasn’t involved in a sexual relationship with GM. He says he has “known him since I was a kid” and then immediately starts talking about Ross. I found that segue a bit odd.

2. Wasn’t (isn’t) GM’s predilection for teenage boys? If so, that would certainly explain why he wasn’t “inappropriate” toward the 22 y/o Ross. And/or he perhaps knew that Ross wasn’t interested in his (GM’s) version of attention (trying to word this delicately)…

[blue_heron]

@DownYonder

Re: Dover’s statement (which I hadn’t read before this thread):

1. Dover doesn’t say he himself wasn’t involved in a sexual relationship with GM. He says he has “known him since I was a kid” and then immediately starts talking about Ross. I found that segue a bit odd.

2. Wasn’t (isn’t) GM’s predilection for teenage boys? If so, that would certainly explain why he wasn’t “inappropriate” toward the 22 y/o Ross. And/or he perhaps knew that Ross wasn’t interested in his (GM’s) version of attention (trying to word this delicately)…

I’m certain that you mean well, but I personally think that trying to produce a narrative of why/why not RD wrote the letter he did based purely on speculation is inappropriate. If there’s a “deeper message” we can take note of it, say “hmm,” and move on, but rationalizing any behavior associated with sexual assault has negative consequences.