Right, I was addressing a statement stating sending him over was a “mistake”.
Many studs sent overseas have a contractual clause that they be sent back as their stud career winds down. Perhaps that figured in as well, potency and overall health decline with age. TC winner grandson or not, he’s 20 and that young TC winner is available. PoN is gone but has other very promising sons.
Rather ironic EMs sire is often knocked on various COTH forums, and another of EMs sons is the young stud in the title of this thread thread ( who sired a KD winner IIRC) who just shipped to Turkey.
No idea why they brought him back but not sure it was to service a full book in upcoming years.
Empire Maker was bred and raced by Juddmonte Farm and stood at their Kentucky farm as a privately owned stallion. From what I have read, he wasn’t clicking with the Juddmonte mares and they received a very good offer from Japan.
He was brought back to the US as property of a partnership and now stands at Gainesway, so he was sold by one owner and repurchased by another, not repatriated by his original owners.
Only 22 weanlings, though, in current crop. But thanks for researching that and linking to it. Wasn’t aware he’d been back for a couple of years now…least they got 2 full crops here from him.
So…where did Win Star factor into any decisions in exporting and repatriating this horse as discussed by another poster?
findeight, I just want to point out that the weanling number of 22 that equineline currently reports is probably deceptive. While all of Empire Maker’s offspring from the two previous crops should be JC registered by now, many of this year’s weanlings have not yet completed the application process. That number can be expected to rise (probably quite a bit) by next year.
The partnership that returned Empire Maker to the U.S. was between Gainesway and Don Alberto Corp (they own the former Vinery farm in Lexington.) WinStar had nothing to do with it.
How much time does it take? And define “prove themselves.” Be specific wrt #crops racing, average earnings, average sale prices, stud fees, etc. and also please address the opportunity cost factors associated with continuing to breed mares to the stallion is question v. established stallions and also new stallions. And don’t forget about cash flow, which is critically important to most businesses. Did it make more sense for the business as a whole to obtain a large sum of cash for an asset, to have that asset generate trickles of cash over the next several years?
I don’t breed, so I don’t know these things, but I’d love to hear informed opinions.
It’s easy to sit behind an anonymous keyboard and criticize the steps a farm takes to stay in business. But when breeders lose confidence in a stallion, they stop sending mares his way. There’s not much a stallion owner can do to reverse that trend. If the racing results aren’t there, it really doesn’t matter if a horse has fans online (who don’t pay any of his bills).
Bodemeister stood at stud in Kentucky for six years. In 2019 he bred 42 mares.
That’s not discussing exportation of underperforming stallions, Thats specifically trashing Win Star, assuming all the “they” and “ their” references in that lengthy, one sided post that you wrapped with “ that’s how Win Star operates” referred to WS.
Just because I like some of the bling that Bodemeister throws in his offspring doesn’t mean he’s catching the attention of the people that are ‘paying his paycheck’… the breeders. The breeders aren’t looking at bling, they’re looking at a total package and I would guess that bling is at the bottom of the list, or not even on the list at all…
I’m with the others… what, by your definition, makes a stallion ‘proven’ enough to keep them in the US vs considering an opportunity to sell overseas to a market that may find the stallion a very nice offering for some overseas breeding program?
WinStar also currently stands a son of Bodemeister, Always Dreaming, for the same stud fee as Bodemeister was standing for. I would also say, perhaps arguably, that Always Dreaming had a slightly better record and results on the track than Bodemeister.
LaurieB. 42 mares may seem small in the grand scheme of things but 42 mares is near average book when looking at the stallion population. The average book of a stallion in Kentucky is near 70 mares and that is only because of the handful of stallions getting 150- 200+ mares per book. The TB industry has gotten too accustomed to exponentially large books of mares (150+) and has judged the rest of the population based on the handful of stallions who garnish that many mares booked. Your mare population is dwindling, therefore a lot more stallions are going to be negatively affected in future years if this trend continues. Your genetic diversity is dwindling when so few stallions are garnishing the largest books; that will begin to hurt in the years down the road as the affects of a shrinking population and a shrinking gene pool begin to take hold.
Let me just say that I fully understand the business model. I come from a family who runs and owns many businesses. I understand the choices that needed to be made for the sake of a company’s success. Its not easy. Real estate is very expensive in Lexington. These vast estates and multi billion dollar barns have a lot of overhead costs they need to cover. Winstar also operates a rehab and training business which helps their overall business model.
Daredevil, while a beautiful stallion, only booked 21 mares in 2019.
Fed Biz booked 39
Overanalyz booked 43
Tourist bred 70
the majority of what Winstar has in the barn bred 80 mares or more. They rely on those “shiny object” stallions to garnish lots of interest and big initial books to help their business model be the most successful. If they don’t; theyre culled off the farm from their program.
Look through the list of stallions with KY next to their prefix and the vast majority have a book well under 50 mares. The stallions breeding 150-230 are upping the average. Here is the list in alphabetical order based on small book and large book stallions in KY for 2019.
The facts:
220 stallions stood in KY in 2019
Of the stallions standing in KY, 125 of them were booked to small books of mares (80 or less)
There were 31 more stallions in KY who booked small books of mares in comparison to their large-book counterparts.
Of the stallions with small books (80 and under mares)
28 of them had books of 50+ mares
75 of them had books UNDER 50 mares
Of the stallions standing in KY, 95 of them had books of over 80 mares.
Of the stallions with over 80 mares booked (large book);
15 of them booked under 100 mares
30 of them booked over 150 mares
8 of them booked 200+ mares
When you start looking at the stats of the stallions standing outside of KY< things get even more grim and the amount but they compile the vast majority of the population
1,135 Stallions bred mares in 2019. Of that total, 915 of them stood outside of Kentucky.
279 Stallions out of the entire population bred 100+ mares in their 2019 book.
Of those 279 stallions, 13 of them stood outside of KY
1042 stallions out of the total population had books under 100 mares.
Of those 1042 stallions, 968 of them bred 50 or less mares.
Of those 1042 stallions, 208 of them bred over 50 mares but less than 100
For those who care to have the master list of the stallions just from KY ; here it is:
Stallions with low books (Under 80 or less mares):
125 total stallions
Afleet Alex - 25
Aikenite - 5
Albertus Maximus - 1
Algorithms - 14
Alternation -68
Anchor Down - 35
Animal Kingdom - 40
Astreides - 19
Awesome Again - 3
Bal a Bali - 74
Bayern - 48
Bee Jersey - 61
Behesht - 4
Beltany - 2
Big Blue Kitten - 28
Biogenic - 6
Bird Song - 20
Birdstone - 8
Bodemeister - 42
Bold Warrior - 3
Brodys Cause - 63
Broken Vow - 26
Can The Man - 23
Capo Bastone - 16
Cigar Street - 13
Cinco Chalrie - 77
Competetive Edge - 66
Congrats - 66
Conveyance - 23
Cupid - 53
Daddy Long Legs - 59
Danza - 42
Daredevil - 21
Dominus - 29
Egyptian Warrior - 2
Even the Score - 4
Fast Anna - 74
Fed Biz - 35
Firing Line - 45
First Samurai - 61
Flat Out - 48
Flatter - 76
Flintshire - 69
Fort Larned -17
Funtastic - 27
Fusaichi Pegasus - 5
Future - 3
Gio Ponti - 13
Graydar - 25
Grey Swallow - 5
Hero of Order - 5
HIt it a Bomb - 20
Ice Box - 2
Include - 24
Ironicus - 23
Itsmyluckyday - 12
Izzys Proud Man - 2
Jack Milton - 31
Javas War - 10
Justin Philip - 7
Karakontie - 69
Karun - 13
Keen Ice - 73
Keep Up - 2
Lea- 68
Lemon Drop Kid - 36
Macho Uno - 16
Mark Valeski - 18
Medal Count - 17
Minshaft - 76
Mizzen Mast - 27
Mohaymen - 52
Mr Speaker - 46
Mr Z - 23
Mshawish - 68
Musketier - 10
Niagara Causeway - 6
Normandy Invasion - 47
North Light - 2
Optimizer - 21
Orb - 28
Overanalyze - 43
Oxbow - 23
Perfect Soul - 12
Pioneer of the Nile - 48
Point of Entry - 65
Poseidens Warrior - 31
Producer - 9
Protonico - 22
Raison Detat - 5
Revolutionary - 21
Rising Legend - 1
Run Away and HIde - 45
Secret Circle - 19
Shackleford - 78
Shakin it Up - 18
Shaman Ghost - 68
Skipshot - 13
Sky Kingdom - 57
Sky Mesa - 59
Slumber - 4
Stormy Atlantic - 28
Strong Mandate - 14
Summer Front - 59
Tale of Ekati - 34
Tale of the Cat - 32
Tale of Verve - 13
Tamarkuz - 57
Tapizar - 71
Temple City - 70
Texas Red - 40
The Factor - 80
The PLayer - 13
Tonalist - 63
Tourist - 70
Trappe Shot - 21
Tu Brutus - 22
Upstart - 38
VE DAY - 15
Verrazano - 18
War Correspondent - 23
We miss artie - 10
Well Drawn - 1
Wildcat Red - 16
Will Take Charge - 56
Stallions with large books (Over 80 mares):
95 total stallions
Accelerate-167
Air Force Blue - 90
Always Dreaming - 165
American Freedom - 96
American Pharoah - 178
Army Mule - 140
Arrogate - 149
Astern - 90
Bernardini - 134
Blame - 112
Bolt D’oro - 214
Casiro Prince - 152
California Chrome - 143
Candy Ride - 161
Carpe Diem - 130
City Of Light -146
Classic Empire - 104
Cloud Computing - 171
Collected - 156
Commissioner - 106
Connect - 112
Constitution - 85
Creative Cause - 95
Cross Traffic -188
Curlin - 129
Dialed in - 107
Distorted Humor - 97
Empire Maker - 126
English Channel 115
Exxagerator - 129
Free Drop Billy - 82
Frosted- 144
Get Stormy - 86
Ghostzapper - 128
Goldencents - 239
Good Magic - 164
Good Samaritan - 162
Gormley - 127
Gun Runner - 166
Hard Spun - 155
Honor COde - 138
Into Mischief - 241
Jimmys Creed- 138
Justify - 252
Kantharos - 171
Kittens Joy - 149
Klimt - 187
Liams Map - 133
Lookin At Lucky -134
Lord Nelson - 131
Macleans Music - 127
Malibu Moon - 131
Mastery - 143
Medaglia Doro - 123
Mccraken - 105
Mendelssohn - 252
Midnight Lute - 118
Midnight Storm 88
Midshipman -117
Mo Town - 144
Mor Spirit - 176
More than Ready - 137
Mucho Macho Man - 86
Munnins - 202
Noble Mission -93
Not this Time - 87
Nyquist - 156
Outwork - 102
Oscar Performance - 118
Palace - 120
Palace Malice- 91
Paynter - 97
Practical Joke - 200
Quality Road - 154
Race Day 102
Ransom the Moon - 118
Runhappy - 127
Sharp Azteca - 195
Speighster - 124
Speighstown - 142
Street Boss - 103
Street Sense - 147
Super Saver - 136
Tapit - 111
Tapiture - 114
Tapwrite - 154
Tiznow - 113
Twirling Candy - 154
Uncle MO - 241
Unified - 102
UNion Rags - 155
Violence - 171
War front - 81
West Coast - 168
Wicked Stron - 131
snaffle, once again you are lecturing us (me) on things we already know. Increasing the length of your lecture does not make it more compelling. We are all capable of reading the JC stats and drawing our own conclusions without you repeating them to us.
So after all that, what’s your point? I’m guessing it’s that you don’t approve of WinStar? We got that the first time around. Maybe I should hop over my back fence and let them know?
Just an FYI, there are no “multi billion dollar barns” in Lexington.
Back to my original question: You are upset that Bodemeister “only” had six years to see if he would succeed at stud here. How long do you think a farm should hold onto a failing stallion? And why?
snaffle - your sneering contempt and use of words like “shiny objects”, “vast estates” and “multi-billion dollar farms” makes your lectures to all of us pathetic dolts little more than some ongoing fixation on WinStar that often disproves your claims of “understanding the business model” - and demonstrates that you seem to have a giant chip on your shoulder…
Please share your expertise and insight with us low-lifes - and answer LaurieB’s question about Bodemeister…
I couldn’t care less what Winstar does or what their business model is. They can do as they please. I posted the stats and the facts because Laurie B implied that Bodemeister was sent down the line because he only covered about 42 mares and insinuated that stallions with small books are not kept at establishments like Winstar. Its true, but Bodemeister isn’t the only failing sire standing in their barn and his book of mares is actually pretty decent considering if you look at the rest of the stats
I’m not implying that anyone should have a problem with how they conduct business. But business models, corporate farms, are ruining the industry as are the massive books to only a handful of stallions. That’s a separate debate for a separate day.
The fact of the matter is that the entire industry is truly supported by those small book stallions; even in KY.
If I’m upset about anything its the fact that Bird Song only received 20 mares in 2019. A shame.
I understand farms’ reasons for wanting big books of mares. Its called maximizing capital. Cash Flow. the more mares bred the more money flowing in. Winstars’ business model, and they are pretty open about this, is maximizing this to greatest capacity they can. If the stallions don’t; they don’t keep them. I don’t have to agree with it. But I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
And I was insinuating that Winstar has a billion dollar “barn”. Winstar is backed and owned by a billionaire who owns billionaire corporations. Its no surprise that the farm is run/managed like one.
I wasn’t upset about anything LaurieB. Go back to my original post in this thread. I simply posted that Bode was sent to Turkey. And ya’all jumped on my like sharks in a minnow pond.
Not going to re quote that long post but…the statement “ real estate is very expensive in Lexington” ? Compared to where? Having lived in the area for 25 years, selecting it for its comparatively low cost.have not kept track of real estate value outside the area… always thought they located here because large chunks of property were more reasonable then many places, local government was easy to work with, taxes lower and cheap labor was available.
