Body Image and Riding

Wicky,
First of all:
I’m not going to waste time with you arguing about Dr. Atkins. My opinion is shared by the majority of nutritionalists and other health professionals. If you love his diet, that’s your decision. Good luck! I have read a lot of warnings that it is dangerous. I have never read that balanced and sensible diets, that include fruits, vegetables, complex carbohydrates, and reasonable quantities of lean protien sources such as fish, poultry, or legumes are dangerous.

My brother has always been on a high fat, high protien, high meat diet. No, it probably has not always been the exact Atkins diet. But he has gone on the Atkin’s diet more than once to lose weight. Years ago my brothers blood tests showed he was heading down the road to heart problems and diabetes. The doctors warned him to change his diet. He didn’t. He paid the consequences.

Ketosis is hard on your kidneys. Regardless of what kind of ketosis it is. Ask your doctor.

Maybe I’ll have a stroke when I’m in my early fifties too, but I’m certainly going to do my best to follow a balanced diet to improve the odds that I don’t.

My mother who is 76, just took up weight lifting a few years ago, which is pretty cool. She is careful about her diet and exercise. Much more so than many of her friends, who are consequently not in as good of shape as she is, or as “young” as she is. She’s ended up having to make much younger friends, because she likes to walk, and to play tennis (she can’t ride because of a fused spine from an old accident). I hope she beats the genetic odds, too. Regardless, she is a terrific inspiration to a lot of younger people, including, me. And her quality of life, is far, far better, right now.

There are also numerous other case studies that show that people who have changed to a balanced diet that is lower in fat and higher in complex carbohydrates have lower cholesteral, lower insulin intake, and fewer bybass surgeries. The majority of doctors and nutritionalists in America agree on this.

The topic of this thread is Body image and riding. Unfortunately most people want a quick fix for their body image, which means a quick fix sort of diet. Which may work for the short term, but doesn’t for the long term. A lot of people who have contributed posts on this thread have talked about being depressed, and having concerns about maintaining a healthy weight. Others have talked about anerexia. You can’t separate body image from the weight loss/weight gain issue, or from issues of self esteem. That leads to the need to educate both the young and old alike reagarding diet as it relates to nutrition, as well as exercise, as it relates to health and well being. Riding is an athletic sport, and therefore is related to all of the above dicussions in this thread. I have no interest in arguing about one diet over another. I just hope that people reading these posts will try to take good care of themselves and not do anything “quick fix” or dangerous. I really, really, hate to see people suffer!! I’d really just like to see fewer people struggle and more people be happy and healthy.

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-22-2000).]

Drat. Ok. Here goes.

I AM a doctor. I did my research of the literature - the stuff in the reputable medical journals (those that are peer reviewed) because I do NOT believe ANYTHING I read about diets in the so-called popular press. I was interested in Atkins’ theories enough to do so.

What I read made scientific sense to me. Especially about the rather low daily amount of carbohydrates that some people need to stick to in order to succeed. That doesn’t mean that anyone else has to agree with me. But, in order to convince me that my conclusions are not correct I would need to know more details about those who feel that they have been hurt, and I can’t - and won’t - review anyone’s medical charts. It is clear that some people can’t be on this diet - especially those with kidney problems (and people with diabetes get kidney problems related to their diabetes, as do people with high blood pressure).

I certainly agree with something that Snowbird said - that things go in and out of fashion, based on the latest “scientific” data. However, as I said, we can only decide which of the scientific data makes sense to us, as individuals, and agree to disagree. Look - my aunt recently died from being treated by a nutritionist who told her to stop all of her medications and take herbal substitutes. I don’t say that all nutritionists are bad, but I do say that we all have to be careful about what we believe, and have some healthy scepticism and if it is important enough to us, try to go to the original data.

But, I do appreciate the concern that people are voicing and I will accept that it is genuine and said because they do sincerely disagree with me and don’t want me - or others - to be hurt. Nevertheless, can’t we agree to disagree on the virtues of this or that diet, and move on? The thread - body image and how we feel about ourselves, have come to terms with our “imperfections” and are moving on with our lives - is far more important than trying to get a consensus about which diet is best for everyone.

Peace?

[This message has been edited by wicky (edited 03-23-2000).]

Snowbird: Your side of this issue has lent a great deal of support to a theory I have had for some time now. I am so glad you brought your experience to this issue. I thought I was just losing my mind or I was looking to place blame. I just wish I had recognized it sooner. As a 20-something girl, size was everything. Now I know size only means what store I’m shopping in (i.e. I can wear a 1 in this brand, but a 7 in this brand and a 3 in this brand). How sad and how very, very sick. Unfortunately, the girls and young women who could benefit from what we have to say are running around with blinders on. Brainwashing at it’s finest.

[This message has been edited by Bascule (edited 04-10-2000).]

Thanks Portia, for a long overdue acknowledgement that great riders aren’t measured by the size in their Tailored Sportsman’s! I struggled for years with poor body image dating back to my junior years… in our barn, the thinner the better, and our trainer had no problem letting you know when you gained a few pounds.

This body image still plagues me, but I am starting to accept that while I am not “overweight”, I do not have a small body frame. And, I can use this to my advantage- strength, leverage and balance. I’ve noticed less emphasis on riders’ (especially Eq.) weight over the years, and thank god, as it’s very destructive. But just a note- on the other spectrum, as riders we owe it to ourselves and our horses to remember we are athletes, so no matter your “size”, it’s important to stay fit, eat right, etc.

And, a little insight about “SIZE”… it’s all relative. I work in fashion and it’s crazy what designers will do to manipulate the sizes basically so a real size 10 woman can wear a 6 in their clothes… bottom line is that she’ll keep buying that designer’s clothes to wear the 6!

I’m no skinny minney to say the least. I’m 5’ and like 113 pounds. some of it is muscle some of it is baby fat. but I could care less what other people think of me, as long as I feel good about myself. I run about 1 mile every night and I can do it without like dieing which means I am in shape, right? Well I gtg…see ya!!

Ryan

From the Queen of the “wrong” body type (medical condition and medications) I say to hell with the stereotype and ride because you enjoy it! I don’t care what people think (they rarely know the whole story)! If you don’t get out and DO something, that “baby fat” will never go away! Don’t stay off horses because this one or that one has a nasty comment. Getting out and excersizing can only HELP your health! As for my horse(s), I have seen plenty of “skinny” riders that ride like a pile driver and plenty of “big” riders that are soft and effective. Be sympathetic to your horse and do your best and let George Morris and the anorexia foundation go pound salt.

Well, I am definitely NOT the perfect build… I admit to being semi-overweight, but it does not in any way affect my ability to ride well and effectively. I do jumpers where you can’t really get penalized for that, but I still feel that you can be an effective rider in ANY discipline and be a less-than-perfect size. I am fairly fit and have never had a problem w/ getting worn out or fatigued at horse shows when I’m doing 3 horses in the same class at a show in the 90 degree heat (well, no more than anybody else ) When I posted the address to my website on another BB (www.geocities.com/paintchaska if you’re interested), someone made a crack about my weight… it hurt, but I suppose you need to ignore the people who want to beat you down. Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who made positive comments on this post… I would like to lose a few pounds, but I don’t want to starve myself to do it. I’m working on it the HEALTHY way… and in the meantime, I’ll be enjoying riding as much as anyone who may be gasp thinner than I am.

RIGHT ON SNOWBIRD!!!


[This message has been edited by Banks (edited 03-16-2000).]

Hi J Turner!
I finally found the author for that other book I mentioned earlier. It’s “Diets Don’t Work” By Dr. Bob Schwartz, Ph.D, Breakthrough Publishing, 1996. (Phone 713-522-7660 if you can’t get it in your local store.)
I think it’s really great you are already walking and you have a dog as a companion and reason to walk! Also, if you live in Cambridge, you have some great places to walk! If you get inspired to increase your walks by even 10 or 15 minutes, you might find it increases your energy level and helps keep the weight down. Most days, I feel too tired to walk, or exercise, but when I “just do it”, I always feel much better! I’ve realized that being sedentary can make you tired, which can make you more sedentary. Also, on the diet thing: Obviously, you know if you are pregnant, you need to be really careful what you eat. Even for people who are not pregnant, I think the no carb, super high protien diets are really dangerous!! Especially the ones that are also high fat. They are hard on your kidneys, etc. The weight loss never lasts. Most legitimate nutrition or health professionals will agree on this. On the other hand, if you are eating a lot of SUGAR, it can actually contribute to depression. RIGHT after you eat it, your blood sugar goes up, and you feel pretty good. Then the insulin kicks in and your blood sugar drops. Then you crave more sugar. It’s a viscious cycle.
I’ve struggled with depression, too. I’ve never taken drugs. David Burn’s method of cognitive therapy really helped me. I even tracked him down in Calif and phoned him and asked him to reccommend a good local cognitive therapist. Which he did. And it made a huge difference. But the books are in paperback and not expensive. Now I have some useful “tools” to help myself (I don’t see a therapist any more) if I start to get down. But if you are severely depressed, a good therapist, who relies on therapy more than just medication, is very important.

If I’m depressed, I’m prone to eating more. But I also know, if I eat a lot of candy, cookies, etc. I can get more depressed. If I cut all sugar out for 4 or 5 days, I feel really great! At the end of the week, I have lost the cravings. It’s not easy, but it’s worth a try! If you take a non-sugary snack to school with you (and it doesn’t have to be carrots or celery!) such as an apple, or whole grain crackers, the calories might be the same, but the effect will be better. Hang in there!

[This message has been edited by Scoutie (edited 03-20-2000).]

First and foremost let me say, I am a fan of George Morris’ quest for the “perfect hunter” style. But, one of Mr. Morris’ biggest beefs is the less than svelte equestrian. Quite frankly, that’s a load of hooey. I cannot count the number of times, I have seen where he comments on a rider’s physique. Something along the line of “now if this rider could slim down a little.” Such an easy task huh???

Personally, this has always turned me off a trifle with him. It is just another example of how kids get the wrong impression of how they should look. Very unhealthy physically and emotionally as far as I am concerned.

Yes we can Wicky,
I do not doubt there may be a scientific basis at the bottom of the concept. I guess what I’m really upset with is the perifieral sales techniques that promise so much more and drain people desperate for a quick fix.

The Atkins magazines and literature (regardless of the value of the original research) is riddled with false promises of instant cures. If you want to lose weight you acn do it eating all you want quickly, need to clear your arteries, take this formula. If you have aches and pains from arthritis take another formula, if you have memory problems there’s another formula. The senior citizens who have lots of things that need to be treated just plain over dose. So while I can agree with your professional opinion of the diet itself I am infuriated by the way that particular diet is used as a piece of sugar to deprive the older folks of their money and their health while promising a return to the vigor and health of younger times.

I apologize for anything that sounded critical of you, I just saw the red when I saw the name Atkins. I hate it when people become so sold on image that they grasp at straws and in turn demean their own looks and ability. I think that as a society we have become slaves of “image” and what we are doing to young people who happen to have a different body build is just awful. Whatever happened to the real America where there was room for all kinds of people?

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 03-23-2000).]

After a few weeks away, seeing this thread, the “Cross-Training” thread, and the two “Weight” threads was surprising! And in a good way…it seems the community is re-forming (absolutely no pun intended) itself.

In the process of catching up with these and other threads, please excuse my coming in late with a few peripheral comments…

Re rider photos: just for the record, Snowbird, doesn’t the camera add 20 lbs? So that models must be underweight to appear extremely slender when photographed?

And it drives me crazy too when each manufacturer–and even lines within the same manufacturer’s clothes–are different sizes.

Furthermore, I totally agree with you about the vanity factor in the current sizing of clothes…or, whatever the size is called, how about standardizing? Please! Guys buy stuff with waist and inseam and collar and sleeve measurements (jackets too) and that’s it!! Think how many relationships could be saved/improved if we didn’t have to explain why it takes us three times (at least) as long to buy one piece of clothing!

Trivia aside, all these related threads make it pretty clear that it’s about self-esteem and fitness rather than image per se. Progress with the former two will usually result in an improved appearance, and/or, far more important, beauty in the way that Snowbird has defined it. Defining yourself or, worse, letting others define you, by externals–not just weight, of course, but that’s what you’re all discussing–is a perilous way to travel…enough philosophy–you are all very brave!

And Snowbird, how did you of all people cope with being a model? Hard to imagine! Or was that the beginning?

I’m not too fat, I’m too short…

This body image thing is something I’ve struggled with for years, denying that it bothers me… Actually it’s one of the reasons I’ve tended toward jumpers for years, rather than eq. But, s**** all of them, anyway. I’m now old enough to want to have fun, and to measure myself against myself. Off to the eq ring!

BUT, in one of my photos over fences that I bought, I found myself carefully shaving a few pounds off the thighs and hips with a magic marker…

It’s scary, seeing some of the people with eating disorders. Where do they get the energy to ride? No muscle mass… The body needs some fat. You DIE BEFORE you get to no body fat.

(I still want to create a movement to return to those canary yellow breeches with the flaps, and the jackets that covered the butt. Anyone want to join?)

It is terribly ironic that the “role models” our young women have starve themselves to the point of looking like a WWII photo from a concentration camp, and then get breast implants to give themselves feminine curves!

My overall view from frequenting the WEF showgrounds was a positive one. Most of the riders looked healthily fit, seemed like the really young riders (pre-junior) were more on the too-skinny side, but we don’t really have any junior riders (so I’m not tapped into their world) at our barn and this was just a very basic overview/gut reaction (excuse the pun.) I vividly remember George Morris’s PH columns in the 70s and early 80s when he would frequently make comments about a rider’s conformation and weight. I’m glad he doesn’t do that anymore.

Cody if you’re reading this:

You’re a superb rider blessed with equally superb horses and parents with the means and wherewithal to help you with your goals and dreams. I am eager with anticipation to watch your promising future enfold. I am certain you’re getting plenty of excercise, stay fit and don’t change a thing (except wear an approved helmet, a lot of people are looking up to you now, set a good example and protect that noggin ) You look MAHVELOUS DAHLING and more importantly you ride even better.

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 03-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 03-14-2000).]

I am a Dressage rider, and let me tell you, if there is any discrimination going on - it’s here. Wow, I can’t believe the number of people (tack shop owners, judges, etc.) who normally would never think of insulting (yes, insulting) people in public will tell me I am too fat to ride. I am 5’, and am far from grossly overweight, but I could stand to lose 15 pounds. My height makes me look even rounder. Some people have no idea what it’s like to go into a tack shop and be told straight out that there is no way I will ever fit into off the rack boots, my legs are too fat. It’s a mortifying feeling, it makes you want to crawl under the carpet. I eat healthy, well balanced meals, ride 4 times a week, but cannot lose that extra weight. I spend all my disposable income on my horse - I cannot afford to join a gym. I walk twice a week, but I live in a big city where going out by yourself at night (I work full-time) is dicey.

I am comfortable with the fact I will never look like Nicole Uphoff, but I love riding, and want to continue - despite I can’t find a decent pair of boots without spending $800!! It is heartbreaking.

Thank you Portia!
To go along with this post I would just like to say how greatful i am for having, and being able to participate(sp?) in this sport. Riding has not only taught me responsibilty, but also sportsmanship, the love of outdoors and person skills, and it has taught me a lot about myself. i am 15, and some of the girls at school are SOO weight concious(sp?) that its really sad, but it doesnt stop at school. FOr me riding is my world, i dont like to go to the mall, and just shop, I would rather be buying my horse a cooler, or spending it on a horse show. I love to go to the barn because it is an escape from all the peer pressures from school, like how you look, what your wearing, you are constantely judged, and its not like riding where you are judged on your talent! I know that no matter where you go you will always be looked at physically, thats natural, but, for me at the barn, we are focused on horses, not what guy is looking at us…
From riding I have learned dedication, and going out isnt that important, I mean I like to look nice and all, but the material things, like weight aren’t very important, although I have to say that i havent had a problem with it.

  • About the outdoors, I jsut have to say this…:
    Last summer when we had that beautiful day(one of the many) when the wind was blowing but the sun was out so it was perfect day, my friend called and I said wasnt it a GREAT day, and she said “i wouldnt know” i was at the mall…
    thanks…sorry to ramble on about myself!

Eating disorders are so prevalent. If you know of someone with an eating disorder, the problem needs to be addressed right away. this is not an easy thing to do. Or is it easy to know what to do. One of the web sites I posted earlier:
www.diettalk.com

Has a huge part of the site devoted to eating disorders, advice, and help. I’m posting this again just in case someone needs the resource for themselves or a friend.

I did forget something - I don’t know if enough information is available on high protein diets for pregnant women. So, for now, I would not recommend it to JB.

However, I do have to say that as a physician, I have read a lot including some of the original work on high protein diets done in clinical research centers. These papers have been well referenced in Atkin’s latest books.

The results are striking. For things that we can measure - cholesterol, triglycerides, weight, insulin resistance - the high protein/low carbohydrate diet is extrememly healthy. My LDL went down, my HDL went WAY up (from 45 to 95 - that’s the good kind) and my triglycerides are almost unmeasurable at 33.

Of course, those who follow Atkins do a lot of supplementation with vitamins and other stuff.

The jury is probably out on other potential effects - as you may know, some think that high fat is related to increased risk of cancer. I don’t know of any work yet on cancer and the high protein diets. Hopefully, Atkins will gather his experience together - but he will need a comparable group of people who are on a high carb low fat diet for years, in order to do the proper statistical analyses.

I do agree that high protein is not for people with certain medical problems, including some kidney disease.

I wish I could say “I work my buns off” taking care of 10 horses 24/7, riding three to four young creatures at least four days out of seven, AND taking care of someone else’s 15-horse barn four days a week (and teaching straight through 11:00-4:00 two days a week with two additional, lighter days)…

Oh, how I WISH I could say that about my buns!

But nothing I do changes my somewhere-between-blocky-and-butterball basic build. It is frustrating and then some.

But I really don’t think I ride all that bad–my horses progress fine (fast, even–with never any back or soundness problems). So I really wonder a bit about just what conformation is “best” for riding.

For example, I’m glad I can throw my weight around a bit when introducing a hunter flying change. When you want to intentionally unbalance a horse, it’s a bit easier when you can use your weight as a weapon!

And, too, until he fell from grace, I must admit I always admired Barney Ward (and I still admire that little german guy whose name I can’t remember): short, squat, stumpy but strong!

BUT I will admit that maybe because of my shorter legs, I am more comfortable on a narrower and/or smaller horse. I think maybe that’s the most important aspect of one’s conformation: finding the horse whose build compliments your own.

A lot of you folks sound like you should try one of my long-fronted, heavy boned, substantial-bodied, 1/2 and 3/4 TB sportponies. I breed them specifically because of some of the points addressed in this thread. You don’t necessarily need size if you are a bit bulkier rider: you need stride, scope, suppleness and strength. Getting all of that in a smaller package may be physically (AND mentally) a lot more comfortable for you! I’ve had a lot of students (riding students) in the past who didn’t fit the typical rider mold and were often poorly mounted as a result. They (and my own traits) were the very reason why I decided to breed what I do.

There, I did it. I plugged my business!

Janet, my “foundation” mare, who is a real “trip” when it comes to her hot, game temperament (AND ability to babysit, too, when asked), is an 11.3h registered Raffles line Half-Arabian with Happy Hour Supreme Shetland on the bottom–100% registered blood on both sides, no guessing. Everyone in my herd is her kid or grandkid or (soon) great grandkid.

She looks like a nicely bred, broad-as-a-coffee-table Welsh, but she’s a kamakaze and a half: came out of the broodmare band one year because she didn’t catch, and within two weeks was doing courses and gymnastic grids with auto changes and walk-to-canters under a tiny tot who hadn’t even cantered before riding her. She’s working on her 12th foal now, at age 20, and two of her daughters have produced numerous get to mature ages now (one I culled, a 1/2 Welsh mare who didn’t have the kamakaze streak–I also culled all of that mare’s get although they trained up and sold well in the hunter market; the other 1/2 TB daughter has mature kids herself and they are all as game as they come, with enormous strides). Every one of the old mares sons (she’s only had three fillies, one is a yearling) are showing or have shown very well on the A circuit with big name trainers.

Don’t get me going on this, though, cuz I’ll never stop. Thanks for asking!