Boots, or shoes?

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=irishcas;3815280]
So you are saying you’ve never used the current boots on the market and that they suck and need a break in period and a band aid… Hmmm how can you give advise for or against, when you obviously haven’t used them.

.[/QUOTE]

No I have never used boots, bought one in case I lost a shoe at a ride but no I never used them.
I never said anything about a break in period. Someone else above me posted that you need a break in period for shoes. I was just saying " no break in period required""
As for going barefoot most of the time I live in snow and ice and I couldn’t even put my horse out most mornings if he didn’t have some form of traction. Since there is snow on the ground the horses trample it to ice at the feeder and the gate and since the lane way is plowed it too is nothing but ice and a barefoot horse could not walk down the lane.
I run alot of gravel, really rough gravel and even steel shoes wear out in 8 weeks. What would all that gravel running do to boots??
I pay $3.70 a pair of steel shoes so every 8 weeks I don’t care if the shoes are totally wore out. I beleive boots would run me what??? $50 a boot and I would wear them out every few months?? Again for me boots are too expensive.
So I need traction help anytime the horse is out, I need wear protection for the severe conditions I run most of the time.
I also don’t want the hassel of another thing to tac up almost daily before I head out. I want to streamline my tacking up and be off. I run a swamp alot of the time in the spring, summer and fall with deep mud for the first 1/4 mile. Can I afford to loose boots in mud, don’t tell me about shoes comming off, I shoe and shoe loss is almost unheard of.
So yes I like shoes, recommend them and NO I have no experience with boots and honestly have never seen a horse with them on where I live.
We have about 200 horses in the square 2 mile block I hang around in and not one wears boots.
No I like shoes for the cost, the toughness and the convenience not to mention the traction aid

Forgot I did see a lame horse 12 or so years ago limping out of a new barn I just started boarding at. I checked the horse and found the boot had cut deeply into the bulbs and was a bloody mess becasue the owner but the single boot on and left the horse for who knows how long that way.
I pulled the boot and let the boor thing run barefoot. I never met the owner for about the 1st 10 years and when I did she asked me to start shoing her horse.

I never get rub marks from my shoes.

So why are you so ticked at me because I recommend shoes???

[Lauruffian]

It’s kind of frustrating that I can’t go ride and see how she does since I’m out of town for the weekend, but you all have given me a TON of advice (and homework) that I am eager to get to work on.

One, saddle fit: I know bodies change after time, but this saddle does (or at least, did at time of purchase) fit–I had a saddle fitter and an equine chiropractor check how it fit her. But again, she’s getting older and bodies change, so it might be time to re-check. Saddle is 4 years old.

Two, toes: Ana does grow long toe and little heel, particularly on her right front. This is, I have been told, her conformation–of course, we work to balance it, but it’s a constant battle. Might be time for my farrier to re-evaluate–I know farriers in the past have gotten sloppy with their trims (inattentive) and she will look quite long even right after a trim. My farrier was checking his angles after every nip and rasp, but didn’t do a gait analysis last time. Sorry–I cannot get pics of her feet since I’m out of town. Later on I might have time to take a recent pic and trim it to focus just on her feet, though.

More than anything, a call to my farrier is in order.

Three, she does not stumble during arena work under saddle, or when worked free lunging in a round pen.

When on the trail, she does do that super careful walk thing many of you mentioned–not stumbly so much as meticulous. This last ride was an anomaly–there was less of that careful walking, and more stumbling.

I’m really thinking my mare may have been having issues with focus and not so much ouch–again, what I need to do is 1) ride her again on the trails and see what happens, and 2) call my freakin’ farrier. Now that it’s not Sunday, I’ll call today during our long drive home.

Thanks so much for your input! You’ve given me a lot to think about, research, and test. Back when I know more!

[Icecapade]

Glad you are on your way! If she is an Arab and you had a uneducated farrier doing her trims, he could have done what the last guy did… do QH trim when the bones need a more upright trim.

In which case-like my horse he had really dropped heels and a long toe… and bad boarder that I am was not down enough to really truly notice and the new guy went to trim him and went… wow how long has he had QH feet? I was like yeah um good question. I know he has low heels but never put it past medocre trimming and a lot of standing in shitty conditions…

yeah we now have shoes with wedges to raise that heel and a shorter toe.

no more sore horse and when he was ridable no more short stepping or tripping.

If in arena work she is still comfortable but trails she may get distracted. Mare at home was very trippy… heavy on the forehand compared to the rest, but always in la la land. And we used to give her a smack when she tripped. Not saying to baet a horse in pain obviously but… well if they aren’t paying attention. that is there entire job… they should be. Little reminder when they do stumble for lack of attentivness isn’t so bad.

Best of luck to you!

[Shadow14]

If you say she grows a little heal on the right front she probably is a little clubby. Meaning she has a club foot. I think of them as grass feet but when she eats the right foot goes back pulling up on the heal and the left front goes out front pushing down on the heal.
When they need trimming the right as heal growth and the left does not.
It is not normal to try equalizing the angles of these different front feet. Each is different and as such should be trimmed different

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3815628]

So why are you so ticked at me because I recommend shoes???[/QUOTE]
The nature of this website I guess:rolleyes:

Don’t worry Norval, Kimmy is one of the good ones:yes:
Thanks to efforts of Rick, Jaye, Mr Stovall and others her deprogramming is coming along very nicely:D
George

[Sithly]

I don’t think there’s really a “wrong” answer here. Use whatever works the best for you.

The vast majority of my riding is done on dirt trails, gravel roads, and the arena. My horse handles all of these just fine barefoot, so I don’t shoe him. When I go on a weekend camping trip in really rocky terrain, I use boots. I don’t see any reason to keep him shod when I only need the shoes two or three weekends out of the year. I have a pair of Easyboot Epics that I got on Ebay for around $100. I’ve had them for three years, and they show hardly any wear.

OTOH, if my horse had a problem with the terrain we’re on regularly, I’d put shoes on him for convenience. In the summer, I usually do around 3-8 miles on the gravel roads 3x/wk (with the occasional 20-miler thrown in), and I’d get sick of putting boots on for that. If he was sore on the gravel, or if his feet wore excessively, I’d get him shod.

However, if that new Easyboot Glove is as good as it looks, I might reconsider. I wouldn’t mind adding 1 minute and 2 seconds to my tacking-up routine on gravel road days!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frNbCwKgdVA

[matryoshka]

Okay, she’s showing classic signs of ouchiness on the trail other than stumbling.

I read the “grows toe and little heel” on the RF as long toe/low heel. It’s possible the LF is high, and you’ve got high/low going on (steeper angle on one front than the other). My Arab mare is like this. The “high” foot has beautiful angles, but the low foot runs forward. There is not much difference in the appearance of the two feet, but there is a difference in how they grow. Heels that don’t appear to grow much are still growing: they grow forward instead of upright. Visually compare the two feet, specifically looking at the turn of the heel. Note where it is on each foot. Ideally, the back of the heel will be near the widest point of the frog. On run forward feet, the back edge of the heel is further forward. Sometimes the heel bulbs will be pointy and shallow on these feet, too.

It’s also possible that one of the feet really is a club, as Shadow thinks, and that your farrier hasn’t mentioned it. I’m always surprised when a new client doesn’t know that their horse has a mild club foot. I guess nobody told them before. It happens, and it does not mean you don’t have a good farrier. He may have thought you already knew. Or your horse may not have a club foot, since these are all guesses.

One of my guys who is high/low is in need of a trim. Maybe I’ll post pics of his fronts so you can see how it looks. The Arab mare’s difference is so subtle that I don’t know whether it will show up in pics, and I round her toes very often to keep the forward growth in check. I don’t know if I can get her royal highness to stand well enough for me to photograph her feet.

Your farrier does need to know the mare has been stumbling. He can help. Also, describe to him how she goes on the trail (I’m assuming some hard footing, maybe rocks) and he can tell you whether she’d benefit from shoes.

If you don’t go out on the trail much and she is fine everywhere else, then boots are a good option for protecting the soles out on the trail. Even when I manage to get out there 3 to 5 times a week, I prefer boots to shoes and am willing to take a few extra minutes to apply them. I like that they are barefoot in the pasture and only have to wear an appliance when I’m asking them to work. That’s a personal preference.

[Shadow14]

Th![](s is a picture of high low. The right front grows heal and the left front doesn’t. This is a mild club foot. The feet where in need of trimming so the difference was reduced greatly but I never try to bring the right heels down to match the left. I trim/shoe for the foot.
[IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/2nvrpnb.jpg)

[irishcas]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3815628]

So why are you so ticked at me because I recommend shoes???[/QUOTE]

HUH???

I commented on your TOTAL lack of understanding of boots.

AND DONE!

[SarahR]

My husband’s TWH goes totally barefoot, in the mountains and desert on long, multi-day riding trips and does fantastic. Todd carries boots in case Indy gets sore, but he hardly ever does. Inspired by Indy, we decided to see if my mare could go barefoot with boots. We went through two sets of boots rather quickly, and they were really becommong a hassle to take on and off, adding more time to getting ready. We finally decided to go back to metal shoes and put New Balance shoes on her, which she took to immediately and begain to move a LOT better with. She also had a lot of saddle fit issues, but we finally have them resolved. She stumbled all the time when her saddles didn’t fit.

Sarah
www.fourcornerstrails.com

[matryoshka]

Do you mean “Natural Balance” shoes? I think New Balances are sneakers for humans.

If she has NB shoes, they are designed to help the foot breakover a little sooner than traditionally rim-fit shoes. They’d be a good option for a horse who is prone to stumbling or overreaching.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=matryoshka;3823244]
Do you mean “Natural Balance” shoes? I think New Balances are sneakers for humans.

If she has NB shoes, they are designed to help the foot breakover a little sooner than traditionally rim-fit shoes. They’d be a good option for a horse who is prone to stumbling or overreaching.[/QUOTE]

You can always roll or rocker the toe to help breakover with a rim fit shoe.
Also be sure the person applying the NB shoes is trained in their protocol.

[Lauruffian]

Update! Okay, I took my mare on a quick trail ride following the same path as uber-trippy time. Well…at least as much of the same path I could remember until it was “Wait, which way do I turn here?” Then it was turn around and go back the way I came. My sense of direction buh-LOWS.

Interesting: on the way out, she stumbled just twice, and both of those were minor and my fault. The first time I oversteered her and she stepped off the path and into deep, soft ground; the second time, I wasn’t paying attention and I led her directly over a large protruding rock in the center of the trail (think speed bump) that she didn’t see.

On the way home, Ms. OMIGAHDITSDINNERTIMEGOTTAGETHOME was a bit hurried in both step and attention, and tripped 3-4 times. All of these were minor, and all of them appeared to be because she wasn’t paying attention.

So, a total of 5-6 minor trips, 2 clearly my fault, versus the 25-35 from last time that included several solid stumbles. ???

My impression from this time around is my mare is too busy rubber necking to pay any attention to her feet. She walks fully alert, head up and ears pricked, and not relaxed and head down minding her path. She hasn’t learned to watch where she places her feet.

Hmm, this makes sense now. In the arena, she’s a real weenie about poles and is not confident in placing her feet (I was thinking we could do more pole work in the ring to help with getting her to focus on placing her feet on the trail). She’s always done flat work in the ring, and I suppose she’s never had to worry about where her feet go there, heh.

She isn’t lame, her back wasn’t sore, and her feet aren’t sensitive. I’ve called my farrier, but we’re still playing phone tag.

Not sure what happened last time. She did seem a bit more careful over rockier terrain, but then again, the trails were much rockier last time (things seems smoothed over today–MUCH better) and the ground was damp. She was also in season, and full of stall-bound energy. Hmm.

Hopefully, it’s just a head scratcher. I’ll keep riding the trails to see if it remains an anomaly, or is a consistent indicator of a problem.

[matryoshka]

@Shadow14;3823775

You can always roll or rocker the toe to help breakover with a rim fit shoe.
Also be sure the person applying the NB shoes is trained in their protocol.

Yep. I’ve seen rim-fit NB’s, and it was not a pretty sight. Training in proper application of these shoes is a must.

[Icecapade]

[QUOTE=Lauruffian;3824646]

My impression from this time around is my mare is too busy rubber necking to pay any attention to her feet. She walks fully alert, head up and ears pricked, and not relaxed and head down minding her path. She hasn’t learned to watch where she places her feet.

Hmm, this makes sense now. In the arena, she’s a real weenie about poles and is not confident in placing her feet (I was thinking we could do more pole work in the ring to help with getting her to focus on placing her feet on the trail). She’s always done flat work in the ring, and I suppose she’s never had to worry about where her feet go there, heh.

QUOTE]
if trails are a new thing it sounds about right… if she is OKay on the way out… she probably is procrastinating… on the way back rushing and more intersted in getting home. Personally, I’d swat her. pay attention! your job is this trail, not getting home… not a full on beat fest… just give her a love tap… that and go over trails with variable footing… allow her to slow down and pick through a couple times. Then gradually increase your speed.

Pushing her through at high speeds won’t really help if she can’t do it in the first place… she will just learn to rush… but once she is through it once or twice, ask for a little more. Give a it a month and see how she is. its like anything else, takes a little time to adjust!

[matryoshka]

I’m sorry, but I’ve not had a horse habitually stumble from lack of paying attention, either. Maybe if they are falling asleep on the trail, but not from the lookie-lous. You could be 100% right about the nature of the stumbling, but…

I still think you need to investigate further into a physical cause. You are sure of your saddle fit? You are sure of the length of the toes? Does your horse show signs of being IR or having other metabolic problems?

The horse I mentioned that was IR (insulin restistant) stumbled badly and often, to the point where the rider was scared to ride him. She’d cracked her sternum on him :eek:. Even after I got his toes back, which helped a lot, he still just did not pick his feet up very far. The owner kept thinking it was lack of paying attention on his part (at least she was riding him again by that point). Then she got his diet right, and he picks his feet up much better. I could probably even let his toes get longer without the stumbling recurring again.

She’d taken the horse to vets, farriers, and trainers, and all told her the horse was lazy and just not picking his feet up. Or, they blamed her riding. I can tell you she sits very tall and straight in the saddle–there’s nothing like smacking your face on a horse’s crest to teach you not to lean forward. It turned out to be metabolic in nature, and he is now tearing up the trails without stumbling-okay, like any horse, he might stumble once every few trail rides.

One case where we can’t even be certain of what exactly helped does not make a bank of data to draw upon. But please keep this in mind as you try to get to the bottom of the problem. A crop may not get her to pick her front feet up any better than she already does.

Possible explanation for why she doesn’t stumble in an arena: soft footing allows the toe to drag along without catching. You should be able to see from her footprints whether she is dragging her toes.

[JackSprats_Mom]

he didn’t need a “break in period”,

What break in period does a shod horse require??! (honest question)

I get mine shod and go.

[Shadow14]

[QUOTE=asbjockey;3813780]
I agree with trying boots first, especially since she’s never worn shoes.[/QUOTE]

You probably got the break in period from me. I was commenting on this post. A horse might never have worn shoes but you can still nail a set on and head out on the trail immediately without a problem.
There is NO break in period for shoes.

[Lauruffian]

Final decision, after talking with my farrier at length: We’re shoeing her in the front. His feeling is the rockier terrain and moisture in the air are both contributing to her stumbles. He doubts her toes are part of the issue, but doesn’t discount it. We’ll see how she does with some simple shoes, and go from there. And they can always come off. :yes:

matryoshka, I am now certain of the saddle fit (now that I’ve checked it again), and as far as length of toes–she does grow more toe than heel in the front, with one foot a bit flatter than the other. This is something we’re always watching and correcting, and now hopefully the shoes might be additional help. Since she’s sound and stumble-free in arenas, it had not been an issue until now. As far as metabolic issues, I highly doubt that as she has never had any issues relating to her metabolism/digestive tract/weight gain/weight loss/appetite. I’m not dismissing you, though; it’s always good to hear these previously unconsidered possibilities, and it will be revisited should the shoeing not work.

Thanks for brainstorming with me, folks! Happy trails! (And yes, I’ll let you know how she does in shoes.)

[matryoshka]

It sounds like you have a good plan. Let us know how it works out. Hope it works out for you…sure would be nice if the simplest solution is the right one!