Lol, get over yourself friend. I don’t expect anyone to take anything, and if anyone wants me to back up my opinions, which are all they are, I’m happy to do so. they can then feel free to ignore them or try them out at will.
The only offence I take is to sanctimonious pontification, and only even then in a resigned sort of way.
[QUOTE=froglander;8027570]
Why is the bottom of the bosal sort of bent forward at nearly 90 degrees?[/QUOTE]
This changes its balance so that the weight of the reins/bosal puts pressure on the bosal unless the horse tips its nose under , and encourages the behind the vertical look that is popular with Arabians.
There are all kinds of horses and disciplines and western pleasure classes just for each one, like this one here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccYgTFRREw
I think that, just because we do what we do with our horses in a different way, that doesn’t mean that, for others, what they do is “wrong”, for them.
Yes, it may look odd, strange, “not right”, compared with what we choose to do with our horses.
Yes, we may question what others do, as here.
There are fads in much people do, shows are about doing things a certain way and some fads do fit at times with that.
It was odd to see that kind of riding in that arabian bosal class, but so is so much other we are not used to seeing, especially when it is not even close to what we would do.
For them, in that breed, in those classes, guess that is what you do, evidently works for them.
[QUOTE=aktill;8027786]
Lol, get over yourself friend. I don’t expect anyone to take anything, and if anyone wants me to back up my opinions, which are all they are, I’m happy to do so. they can then feel free to ignore them or try them out at will.
The only offence I take is to sanctimonious pontification, and only even then in a resigned sort of way.[/QUOTE]
I think sanctimonious pontification is one of my new favorite phrases!
Not exactly…it does change the balance but you can’t weight anything to go behind the vertical , gravity says a weight will only balance on the perpendicular . The bosals are plaited rawhide over a rawhide core and are quite stiff, not limp. You custom shape each bosal for the horse , I used to wet mine and tie them around a coffee can with twine. They pretty much hold their shape after that if you loop the mecate around them when they are hanging.
The mecate is wrapped to give a couple inches of play before the bosal contacts the branches of the jaw. The way they are shaped gives a curb like leverage effect that you don’t get off of an un shaped bosal. Most people use a parachute cord mecate because it has a nice drape.
So now to the hand position .In order to take advantage of the leverage effect of the shaped bosal the action is up not back. Like a curb bit , you lift the hand to take contact instead of like a snaffle where you move the hand back to take contact. Because it is a bosal not a bit you also have some action off the sides of the face so if your hands are out to the side and you tap your rein you get contact on the opposite side of the face .
The goal is to have the horse so light and responsive that you can ride it with a draped rein and it will respond to the weight of the lifted rein before the bosal touches the face .
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8029505]
I think sanctimonious pontification is one of my new favorite phrases![/QUOTE]
You may also note that I didn’t return the favor and made personal remarks.
One reason, not suitable to these discussion.
Another, it is against the stated rules.
One more, it defeats the purpose of trying to make your point.
When we can’t answer to the topic, but are reduced to comments attacking the messenger, the position we are talking is weakened.
In my humble opinion, of course.
Back on topic, it seems that, for that breed and those classes, they do train and prepare for and show their horses according to their rules.
Any of us, not riding like they do, would be laughed out of the class as not knowing what we were doing.
[QUOTE=st_francis;8029654]
Not exactly…it does change the balance but you can’t weight anything to go behind the vertical , gravity says a weight will only balance on the perpendicular . The bosals are plaited rawhide over a rawhide core and are quite stiff, not limp. You custom shape each bosal for the horse , I used to wet mine and tie them around a coffee can with twine. They pretty much hold their shape after that if you loop the mecate around them when they are hanging.
The mecate is wrapped to give a couple inches of play before the bosal contacts the branches of the jaw. The way they are shaped gives a curb like leverage effect that you don’t get off of an un shaped bosal. Most people use a parachute cord mecate because it has a nice drape.
So now to the hand position .In order to take advantage of the leverage effect of the shaped bosal the action is up not back. Like a curb bit , you lift the hand to take contact instead of like a snaffle where you move the hand back to take contact. Because it is a bosal not a bit you also have some action off the sides of the face so if your hands are out to the side and you tap your rein you get contact on the opposite side of the face .
The goal is to have the horse so light and responsive that you can ride it with a draped rein and it will respond to the weight of the lifted rein before the bosal touches the face .[/QUOTE]
There is one small problem with all that, the considerable weight of some of those bosals.
Why does that cause problems?
Watch a video of a horse working with one of those carefully and you will see how they pivot as the horse moves, creating a continuous motion up and down and sideways with the added weight of the reins.
So, a horse has to learn to ignore the bosal bumping all along and still notice when it is not just bumping, but the rider moving the reins?
What most horses end up doing is learning to read the rider, each head, shoulder, hip, seat and leg movement, each weight change in general caused by the rider’s intentions and balance and respond to that also, which in the end is the intent of the more finely trained of those horses.
Now, don’t get offended, that is just one observation some trainers have made, to be taken into consideration only, not to bristle at it, as some tend to do.
Llook at videos and you can see that clearly happening there.
It is not only the hand picking on the reins that makes the bosal move, but the movements of the horse itself does it also, as you can see here, as used by people that we assume know what they are doing when fitting and using bosals the vaquero way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyo0Tk2CYE
Only with very tightly fitting bosals and most are not, you may avoid most of that extraneous movement.
Well the shaped bosal doesn’t bump around much, I can’t watch the second video so I don’t know if the bumping you mean is on that one, if you are seeing continual movement on the Arabs chances are it is because the rider is bumping the horse every stride which is not ideal.
As you can see we don’t ride the Arabs vaquero style so I can’t speak to that, we are looking at a very stylised version of western riding.
Absolutely the horse follows the shape of the hands and body, you train them so that they stay between your hands, if you turn your body and hands the horse will pivot with you , you shouldn’t even have to pick them up.
You can like it or not, just the question was why the hands were held that way and I happened to know.
There is such a depth of knowledge on this board it was pretty exciting for me to have an answer!
Maybe if you google the title of the video you can access it:
Overview of the Houliahan Ranch Winter Roping at the Brannaman Arena
Keith Valley - CowboySaddlery
One of my pet peeves with the horse world is that people do things without having much in the way of reasons for why they do them. These forums are full of “try this” sort of postings that peter out if anyone says “why?”.
OTOH, the best threads we’ve had here have been ones where people are willing to have their actions and opinions questioned without having a hissy fit, or resorting to the almighty rule of “That’s Just The Way It’s Done” (ie, “'cause”). Are those discussions always civil, with no hurt feelings? Heck no, and we should all (myself included) probably look to tone a bit more, and use hyperbole a little less.
These sort of posts:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?460618-Bosal-hand-position&p=8027626#post8027626
…add no value, however.
Sure, people do things differently. However when the purpose of the thread is a discussion for WHY something is done the way it is, posting that “we all do things differently” adds zero value. Put up or shut up sounds harsh, but nobody is immune from being questioned ESPECIALLY when there are reasons for the questions being asked.
So Bluey, I’m sorry if you felt personally attacked, since that wasn’t my intention. We don’t need another moderator around here however, so please stop trying to act like one since it just seems like you’re looking for validation.
For my part, I’ll try to stop using terms like “ridiculous” (which in the context of WP will be hard, I’ll admit straight out).
[QUOTE=st_francis;8029654]
Not exactly…it does change the balance but you can’t weight anything to go behind the vertical , gravity says a weight will only balance on the perpendicular . The bosals are plaited rawhide over a rawhide core and are quite stiff, not limp. You custom shape each bosal for the horse , I used to wet mine and tie them around a coffee can with twine. They pretty much hold their shape after that if you loop the mecate around them when they are hanging. [/QUOTE]
Are you intentionally shaping them so they hang with the heel knot hang like this? http://www.evaha.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Khai-Reg-7-20070430.jpg
I’ve never seen a bosal with much of a stiff core take a set like this. At best they’re very soft rawhide cores, but often they’re rope cored. People who don’t bother to untie their mecates each time can end up with a slight forward set, but Arabian WP seems the only place where bosals end up looking like the above photo.
Most times when I’ve seen people speak of shaping they’re shaping the nose button to conform to the muzzle without gaps at the side.
What aspect of the shaping process (wider/narrower or bent forward) are you referring to here.
A bosal also cannot exert leverage (there’s no fulcum such that a curb strap provides), so it’s not quite correct to use that term.
The problem with using the rein out to the side is that you end up asking the horse to tip his nose out from under his his spine. To the extreme, you end up with this:
http://www.equisearch.com/content/content/13216/Bosal-Photo1-195x300.jpg
When the horse isn’t aligned in his spine, it affects him all the way back to his loin.
The problem is made worse when the mecate is tied on like in this pic (or likely the one above, can’t quite tell):
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5089/5212898449_d8fa29376c_m.jpg
…such that the reins come out of the bottom of the stack of wraps down by the heel knot, rather than up close to the chin. People that tie that way are trying to use the bosal as a lever, as you state above.
With no curb strap, however, all that happens in longitudinal actions is to increase the amount of rein required to have the bosal contact the jaw (ie, move your hand more). Whether the rein is high or low on the wrap stack the only force the horse feels is the same exerted by the rein…there’s no multiplication of force in either case, so no leverage.
The bosal action is quicker with the reins coming out by the chin however, which most people think of as a good thing if you eventually want to ride with your hands in a small “box” above the saddle horn.
For lateral action, it will amplify the twisting force put on the bosal if the rein tie is down low (moreso if the bosal is too long and lots of wraps are stacked). A sensitive horse will be more strongly encouraged to follow that twist to say in the center of the bosal, with the corresponding affect on his spine.
Though it’s good to hear you emphasize that bosals should be used mainly with a lifting action (which I agree with…they’re more longitudinal tools than lateral ones), with the rein on low you’re also more likely to get inadvertent lateral requests. That may be why the wide hands evolved…an attempt to keep the horse’s poll level with a really unbalanced bosal.
The added weight of the rein down low will also cause the bosal to want to hunt or drift more. WP horses don’t really move enough for this to be an issue, but it would be a bad habit to take into another event.
That’s not a “vaquero” comment simply because I made it,BTW, it’s just physics.
Using the bosal with a primarily lifting action doesn’t require the hands to be held out from the body, which was another point being questioned.
What that mainly does is to bring tension into the rider’s shoulders, or if the upper arms aren’t hanging loose and vertical, into the rider’s elbows as well.
Something that is tense will generally draw the eye because it breaks the flow of the movement, so watching a video and noticing what you eye goes to first will usually be pretty revealing. In the video of a good rider the horse will generally draw the eye first, but I personally see some pretty stiff upper bodies in most of the WP rider videos linked here and my eye goes more to the riders than to the horses.
Yes, they are shaped like that on purpose. If you look at the part where the bend is , that is where the contact is on the branches of the jaw. Because of the way the bosal is bent you get a mild leverage effect off the nose. The bosals are not solid but they are stiff, they do have some flexion but not like a leather one. All the bosals I have seen are rawhide core.
If your bosal fits you only get a couple wraps but you can put your reins at any of them depending on the horse, I don’t know about inadvertent lateral action , if you lift up on one rein you can get a nice lift of the shoulder and bend to that side and if you use an opening rein to that side you draw the horse towards your hand. You do get a little twist so you cant just pull them around, thats where the finesse comes in and also you know, leg. If you want a highly collected and rounded western horse then a shaped bosal is what will get you there.
Well, it isn’t tense but it is a very mannered looking style… To do it well is not easy, you need to use your core and keep a supple arm and soft feel in the hand.
How are you defining leverage?
OK, point of clarification here: I trained and showed professionally on the Arabian circuit for almost thirty years. I trained and showed a LOT of western pleasure junior horses in a bosal, including National top tens and regional winners. Nobody did this then and the horses went much the same as they do now. There is absolutely zero reasons for this affectation…it is just another silly trend, like the Elvis collars on the shirts and jackets, or the color of tack, or the shape of western hats and will eventually go out of style. Think of it as part of the uniform.
Lol you are the first person I have ever come across that says that western horses go exactly the same now as as they did 40 years ago.
Hey, I’m not THAT old! 
But when I retired ten years ago, the western horses went pretty much just like they do today, only without the “holding two teacups up in the air by the handles” affectation with the mecate. The fashions and tack have changed, but that’s about it. That said, they are a lot different than they were when I first started training.
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