Bought a sick horse

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=headsupheelsdown;8807577]
This might be a case where no one could have known the horse was sick until the symptoms actually showed up.[/QUOTE]

When I rescued my pony, the timeline was as follows:

• run through auction on a Monday
• sat on the lot for two days
• checked out fine for his health certificate on a Thursday, which requires a temp (and pictures show a bright perky pony)
• was loaded on a trailer and brought to me five hours away on a Friday
• unloaded and yahoo’ed around my quarantine lot, eating and looking perky
• went out Saturday morning and he had busted open Strangles abscesses under his jaw, leaking pus everywhere, nose down to the ground and feeling like one sick puppy.

Contrary to what the poster a few posts above said, sometimes things CAN come on quite quickly, particularly if the horse is already under stress. (Long trailer rides, etc.)

Thank God I had had the common sense to quarantine him, knowing that he was coming out of a gross auction barn. Took three weeks of some hardcore antibiotics and abscess-scrubbing, but he healed up fine. It literally never occurred to me to put him down, Strangles is so treatable. And I had full blown Strangles, not just guttural pouch infection. 'course, I also had an emergency fund for this particular purpose.

[Ghazzu]

I have seen horses incubating strangles which seemed quite bright and healthy, and 12 hours later, were running a high fever, before any lymphadenopathy developed, so I would say that the horse might have looked fine to the vet.

It is unclear from the posts whether the horse has a clinical case of strangles, or has pneumonia of some other etiology and also happens to be a carrier.

If the latter, I might wonder whether the horse aspirated some hay while in transit and has pneumonia due to that.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=Sick;8807209]
I’m posting anon.

I rode the horse 3 separate times. Seemed fine. Had a vet check, no blood work (I’ve never had blood work done), passed. The next day the horse was delivered (my own hauler) with a 102.5 temp. Went straight to my vet.

Turns out he had pneumonia. Stayed at the vet six days until he was cleared to leave. Did a nasal swab on Thursday to make sure he still wasn’t contagious.

Turns out he’s a Strangles carrier. She scoped him and he has pus in his gutteral pouches. I can’t afford this.

Calling the seller today. I’ve had the horse less than two weeks. I want my money back, $4500. and to return the horse.

What are my options?

What if she refuses to accept the horse/return the money?

How do I get the money from her? What if she agrees to pay, I show up with the horse (5 hours drive) and she says she will take the horse but not return my money? Is it possible to have her PayPal it?

The horse is still at the vet @125. a day and cannot leave. What if she drags this out and I have to keep paying the vet.

If I take the matter to small claims, I’m still stuck with paying for the horse at the vet.

Returning the horse is not in the sales contract. It is very rare for anyone to give trial periods.

I have a copy of the vet check with states the horse was healthy.

Thanks to any advice.

I don’t want to put the horse down since he’s fairly young, 10 yrs old and can be cured, but if I have to I will. The meter is running at the vet.[/QUOTE]

<bolding mine>

For the horse’s sake, I hope the seller takes him back and I pray you never get another horse.

[AKB]

Why is the horse still at the vet’s? Isn’t there somewhere else (cheaper) he can go where the other horses are immune to strangles or he can be separate from other horses? My friend had strangles go through her barn. One horse had to go to the vet hospital for a day to have her guttural pouches flushed out. Some got antibiotics on the farm. Some did not need treatment.

In some parts of the country strangles is very common. When we get a new horse, we do a strangles blood test to see if the horse is immune. If the horse is not immune, we give the intranasal vaccine.

[RedmondDressage]

[QUOTE=RockinHorse;8807672]
<bolding mine>

For the horse’s sake, I hope the seller takes him back and I pray you never get another horse.[/QUOTE]

SERIOUSLY. Having purchased a horse from the auction who had strangles (and a particularly nasty form), the treatment is really more annoying that anything. While people freak out over strangles (and they should, being that it is highly contagious), it’s not actually a difficult or particularly expensive illness to treat. I hate to think of what OP would do with something more serious :no:

[nashfad]

Small claims court…you need no attorney if you have all your paperwork in order and can present your case in a sane non-emotional manner…well, you could lose your filing fee (prob around $175-$200) if you lose the case BUT the seller could decide not worth going before a judge when served and settle this out of court. Worth a try to me.

[IronwoodFarm]

I hope the OP notified the shipper and decontaminating the trailer is necessary. I have been buying and selling horses for 16 years and I have had two very bad experiences with shippers. One was weanling who left the farm fine but came down with a horrific case to strangles a few weeks after arrival at her new home. The other was a horse I shipped to Bermuda. He got something in his shipping container, became neurological and had to be euthanized. It broke my heart. In both cases, the horses had vet exams and were clean. The Bermuda bound horse went through quarantine.

All I ask is that the shipper be told so that decontamination can be done. I don’t want anyone to go through these kind of veterinary expenses and losses.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8807586]
When I rescued my pony, the timeline was as follows:

• run through auction on a Monday
• sat on the lot for two days
• checked out fine for his health certificate on a Thursday, which requires a temp (and pictures show a bright perky pony)
• was loaded on a trailer and brought to me five hours away on a Friday
• unloaded and yahoo’ed around my quarantine lot, eating and looking perky
• went out Saturday morning and he had busted open Strangles abscesses under his jaw, leaking pus everywhere, nose down to the ground and feeling like one sick puppy.

Contrary to what the poster a few posts above said, sometimes things CAN come on quite quickly, particularly if the horse is already under stress. (Long trailer rides, etc.)

Thank God I had had the common sense to quarantine him, knowing that he was coming out of a gross auction barn. Took three weeks of some hardcore antibiotics and abscess-scrubbing, but he healed up fine. It literally never occurred to me to put him down, Strangles is so treatable. And I had full blown Strangles, not just guttural pouch infection. 'course, I also had an emergency fund for this particular purpose.[/QUOTE]

In all fairness to the OP your “timeline” is completely different than that of the OP’s. In addition your horse came out of a “gross auction barn”. Not from a private seller who generally know their horses well.

I am no expert with Strangles meaning I have only had to deal with several cases. All of which were with young horses, under the age of 2. But probably several more than the majority of horse owners/caretakers.

I was at a party last night and a vet I use and know well was there also. I brought this thread up and your experience. He concurred with my experiences, the nodes generaly get quite large before “bursting”. In some horses they can easily be seen, others hardly at all. Depends on one’s eye. But in all cases they will be enlarged to one degree or another and can be felt a day or 2 before if not several days before. Depends on the horse, older horses much less so. They may have a slightly elevated temp which is not unusual for a horse and maybe dismissed as not that unusual and just monitor the horse for the time being.

In short there will always be some sort of “tell tail” how the tell tails are interpreted depends on the caretaker. No disgrace if they are dismissed at run of the mill. Not many caretakers have experience with tail tale signs of Strangles or any number of other things that develop into something much more serious then first impression.

There will always be exceptions to the rule. But far more “exceptions” are talked about then than those that go by the “rule”. The “rule” is kind of boring.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8808527]
In all fairness to the OP your “timeline” is completely different than that of the OP’s.

(snip)

In short there will always be some sort of “tell tail” how the tell tails are interpreted depends on the caretaker. No disgrace if they are. Not many caretakers have experience with tail tale signs of Strangles or any number of other things that develop into something much more serious then first impression.

There will always be exceptions to the rule. But far more “exceptions” are talked about then than those that go by the “rule”. The “rule” is kind of boring.[/QUOTE]

It’s actually not. We’re talking a matter of days, in both cases, from when the horse was “healthy” to when the horse was sick.

OP is looking for someone to blame and the fact of the matter is, exception or not, there are cases where things come on quite quickly and everything just needs to be chalked up to a good case of bad luck, not a malicious seller or a vet that’s getting bribed to fudge a temp on a health certificate. This is what emergency accounts are made for.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8807671]
I have seen horses incubating strangles which seemed quite bright and healthy, and 12 hours later, were running a high fever, before any lymphadenopathy developed, so I would say that the horse might have looked fine to the vet.

It is unclear from the posts whether the horse has a clinical case of strangles, or has pneumonia of some other etiology and also happens to be a carrier.

If the latter, I might wonder whether the horse aspirated some hay while in transit and has pneumonia due to that.[/QUOTE]

“I have seen horses incubating strangles which seemed quite bright and healthy, and 12 hours later, were running a high fever,”

Where these horses part of a study you were involved in? Or horses you happened to have looked at the day before? What were their ages?

Asking for educational purposes.

Considering some of the IMO self serving comments that have been made we might not get an answer to the “unclear” part of the equation. The same that I asked in my comments.

To be clear again, I was not trying to throw the vet or anyone under the bus.

Playing devil’s advocate. Trying to present the bigger picture also, other ways of looking at things.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8807391]
The horse was diagnosed with pneumonia, and also as a strangles carrier. The horse does not have strangles. But, nonetheless, no one wants (quite reasonably) a strangles carrier in their barn until that status has been cleared up via treatment.

I really feel badly for our OP. It’s just a crummy situation. If anyone is at fault it would be the vet IF they missed obvious signs of illness (pneumonia) assuming there were any signs at the time of the vetting. That might be hard to prove. It’s possible, but probably unlikely that the seller knew the horse was sick–heck, the vet even missed it. So, I think it is very difficult to fault the seller.

As far as checking for strangles carrier status, that’s not a normal part of routine vet care or a pre-purchase exam. I bought a few horses last year and didn’t check any of them. Strangles carriers are just out there, that’s how the disease survives. I think you could consider yourself lucky that the horse didn’t come into your barn and infect a bunch of other horses before you figured that out. It’s maybe a little lucky that the strangles carrier status was caught so quickly.

Anyway, what I’m trying to get at here, is that what happened to you can happen to any horse owner at any time. It isn’t anyone’s “fault.” Yes, I can understand feeling a little bitter about it and feeling like you are taking care of someone else’s problem, but the reality is that this could have happened to your horse (ANY horse) at any point during ownership.

As a horse owner, you need to develop a better ability to take a deep breath. Frankly, the horse could have broken a leg or ripped a tendon five minutes after stepping off the trailer. It could have colicked and needed an even more expensive surgery and hospital stay. Once you buy a horse you are accepting the risks and the responsibility. You’ve just got to take a deep breath and shoulder that responsibility to the best of your ability.

Yes, it is extremely discouraging to blow out your emergency vet fund in the first two weeks of horse ownership. But you know what? You might have this horse for 10 years and it might never have another significant injury or illness. Pneumonia and strangles carrier status are both treatable, recoverable conditions.[/QUOTE]

You make very good points as always.

"what happened to you can happen to any horse owner at any time."

Absolutely and a fair point. But I have a bit more empathy for the OP than most have. The OP is shelling out a lot of money for a horse she/he hasn’t even had a chance to thrown a leg over let alone “bond” with. Most people would not be happy about paying bills on “someone” else’s horse. Which this one essentially is, feels like a day after arriving.

I would bet anyone that bought a car/truck and it ended up with expensive repairs they day after they got it home would be screaming from the rafters.

But they would have recourse because most states have the “lemon law” which covers more than just cars and trucks. The seller assumes a certain level of responsibility for preexisting problems/issues, known or unknown. The time period varies from state to state.

I believe the lemon law in some states also applies to the sellers of dogs and maybe horses also.

As I said in my first comment. This maybe one of those “oft” cases of bad luck. But I don’t think it maybe as clear cut as others seem to think as to who’s bad luck it really is in the end.

If the horse was bought at a major Thoroughbred auction the sale most likely would be rescinded. The buyer reimbursed for any and all out of pocket expenses. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are states where horses are covered under the “lemon law” for lack of a better way of putting it.

[gumtree]

A concise article on Strangles;

http://www.roodandriddle.com/images/files/STRANGLES.pdf

[FalseImpression]

in these cases, i feel bad for the horse first!
Not his fault…
yes it costs money, but if you can’t afford vet bills, don’t buy a horse. You are always guaranteed vet bills at some time.
You can’t just throw him away.
Treat him, care for him and do right by the horse!

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Sick;8807209]
I’m posting anon.

I rode the horse 3 separate times. Seemed fine. Had a vet check, no blood work (I’ve never had blood work done), passed. The next day the horse was delivered (my own hauler) with a 102.5 temp. Went straight to my vet.

Turns out he had pneumonia. Stayed at the vet six days until he was cleared to leave. Did a nasal swab on Thursday to make sure he still wasn’t contagious.

Turns out he’s a Strangles carrier. She scoped him and he has pus in his gutteral pouches. I can’t afford this.

Calling the seller today. I’ve had the horse less than two weeks. I want my money back, $4500. and to return the horse.

What are my options?

What if she refuses to accept the horse/return the money?

How do I get the money from her? What if she agrees to pay, I show up with the horse (5 hours drive) and she says she will take the horse but not return my money? Is it possible to have her PayPal it?

The horse is still at the vet @125. a day and cannot leave. What if she drags this out and I have to keep paying the vet.

If I take the matter to small claims, I’m still stuck with paying for the horse at the vet.

Returning the horse is not in the sales contract. It is very rare for anyone to give trial periods.

I have a copy of the vet check with states the horse was healthy.

Thanks to any advice.

I don’t want to put the horse down since he’s fairly young, 10 yrs old and can be cured, but if I have to I will. The meter is running at the vet.[/QUOTE]

Ok wait why would you have to put him down??

[RedmondDressage]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8808631]
Ok wait why would you have to put him down??[/QUOTE]

This is what I’m so confused by… And where I lost any sympathy/empathy for OP. The strangles treatment costs less that putting a horse down/disposing of the body and it’s absolutely not something that calls for euthanization! In fact, I would be fairly horrified if a vet would even be willing to euth an otherwise sound, healthy, young horse solely because it has strangles. Doubly so if he’s responding well to treatment.

If it’s the stabling cost at the vet that’s the problem, put a little effort out there and find a place to quarantine! There are auction horse and local horse groups all over FB and many of them have networks of people who are willing to offer QT boarding. I know our local network has a number of people who can offer such services for much cheaper than the vet will charge you. You are going to need to QT the horse after treatment anyway and let’s be frank, you should have had plans in place to do that even if the horse hadn’t come up ill. EVERY new horse should be QT’d before entering general pop at a new barn. I know many people don’t do this but it’s foolish for this exact reason.

[Ghazzu]

@gumtree;8808544

“I have seen horses incubating strangles which seemed quite bright and healthy, and 12 hours later, were running a high fever,”

Where these horses part of a study you were involved in? Or horses you happened to have looked at the day before? What were their ages?

I don’t think you were throwing anyone under a bus.

The case I recall most clearly, because he was mine, was a gelding, about 6-7 years old at the time. He had never had strangles, nor was he vaccinated.

He was at a friend’s barn where they routinely vaccinated for it (the IM version, the IN had not been developed at the time.)
A horse in another barn on the property developed a clinical case of S.equi. I checked my own horse over the next morning, normal temp, no clinical signs, so decided to bring him home, figuring even if he did get sick, it would be easier to treat him in the back yard than 15 miles away. (So much for access to an indoor…wouldn’t have been of any use with a sick horse, any road.)

Went over to get him that evening, and he was a little quieter than usual. Took him home, checked him over again, still no fever or lymphadenopathy.
Next morning, a temp of 102.

Since he had only mild lymphadenopathy then, I started him on antibiotics, and within 48 hours, he was back to normal. I did continue the Abs for 7 days, though. (I have had reasonable success in “short-circuiting” full blown cases if a. they have not yet developed abscesses and b. they have been removed from the source of the pathogen.)

Later, the BM and I sat down and figured out how the whole outbreak on the farm started.
One of her boarders–whose horse was stabled right next to mine–fancied herself a freelance trainer, and had visited another barn in town where there was a newly arrived stallion who had contracted S.equi in transit to the farm from Florida. Those barn owners had isolated him in a separate barn, and put signs up asking people to refrain from entering and touching, etc.

Flaky “trainer” is one of those people who thinks rules do not apply to her, so she went and petted stallion, including hand-feeding treats. (confirmed by witnesses.)
Then returned to the farm where my horse was, tacked up a mare in the other barn (the index case), and rode.
Finished with her, then took her horse out and rode him, as well as feeding treats to both my horse and the horse on the other side of her own. (Yes, he got sick, too.)

Ironically, Typhoid Trainer’s horse was about the only one in the barn that did not come down with strangles, having had it when younger…

[animaldoc]

Don’t know how far the horse had to travel but subclinical (ie. not detectable) respiratory disease can be made clinical by shipping…

So I’m putting this in the category of REALLY crummy luck. So sorry…

Hope the horse gets better soon…

[Draftmare]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;8807357]
Move him to a barn that can isolate him and wait it out!! Horses recover 100% from strangles!! No need to throw him away!! A bad deal, but seller had no way to know if the horse was “going” to get strangles if the vet didn’t see any signs. A sad, expensive situation, but not legally feasible to recover your costs. Vet $$ sounds overly expensive to me!! There is no treatment for strangles…just supportive care…and time. Good news is he will be immune for the rest of his life!! PLEASE don’t expose him to any other horses!! You still will have the horse you liked enough to buy when this is all over!!![/QUOTE]

But, if I am reading correctly the OP can’t afford the treatment for strangles, which while I don’t know what that is, I can’t imagine it is that expensive? I briefly worked at a sales barn where strangles went through on a fairly regular basis. I left after the second outbreak (and then found out from other sources that it happened frequently as many of their resales came from the auction), but all of the horses went on to other homes after they were cleared up, and I never heard anything from anybody about the horses having later problems.

[microbovine]

Does anyone think the OP will come back?

I hope the horse gets treated by someone. It would be a real shame to put the horse down for something treatable.

I spent money on a horse with a GPI and then she died six months later of something entirely different. Sometimes things just work out badly. At least she was comfy those last six months.

[cloudyandcallie]

[QUOTE=FalseImpression;8808605]
in these cases, i feel bad for the horse first!
Not is fault…
yes it costs money, but if you can’t afford vet bills, don’t buy a horse. You are always guaranteed vet bills at some time.
You can’t just throw him away.
Treat him, care for him and do right by the horse![/QUOTE]

I agree with this. Poor horse! He could have colicked or stepping on a nail or had something else happen. Strangles can be cured.

OP will not win in court with a PPE having been done.