IIRC, it was like this before. I think it was 2 entries at a one level and third allowed at a different level.
Also, combined driving still has longer cross country courses and the obstacles on CC limit how quickly turnouts can go. Also with pairs and 4 in hands + their spares (1 extra allowed for a pair, 2 for a 4 in hand) there are more horses to accommodate making the logistics of more entries difficult.
Thank you, and I agree that the courses back then weren’t safer (as far as footing and fence building). I think if we could mix the design with the building and footing upgrades we have now, we would be in a better spot.
This is such a great point that I think is lost on SO many professionals in eventing these days.
I know some riders are at the mercy of their owners too. I can think of one horse in particular that should have been retired last year that is still being pushed and pushed with lack luster results, and for what? At point does the rider tell the owner - she’s done. Or does the rider keep going along with it because the owner throws bucket loads of money at them. This dynamic HAS changed the sport for us. Not all riders have a back bone or enough care to say “enough is enough”. Unfortunately for us amateurs, the pros are the voices TPTB listen to. I mean, just look at this thread. Someone with the experience and knowledge of DE is now referred to as irrelevant.
In Mark Todds biography he explains about running his horse with one stirrup on XC at Burghley. He said he kept going because the owners were there and he felt he owed it to them for a good placing, in hindsight it was ridiculous because the horse was completely backsore from him bouncing around up there that he didnt present it the next day.
That was nearly 30 years ago. Surely we have learned since then, but from my observation, a lot of UL riders care more about the fame and money than their horse and their own safety. This is why these safety arguments continuously go in circles about the sport being “inherently dangerous” and its always a “freak accident”.
I don’t think he can stop Boyd from competing a horse at Pau. And god, I can only imagine how devastated you would be if you tried to stop him, failed, and then this happened. What I think is that if Denny was as sure about this impending doom as he says he was, he should have tried something. He might have failed, but he should have tried.
I also very firmly believe that if he had tried something, we would be hearing about it loud and clear on his social media right about now. He’s made no secret about broadcasting emails he’s sent to the powers that be, or about copy and pasting direct messages from people like Dom Schramm. I can’t be positive, but I’m pretty darn sure if he had legitimately made an effort to stop Crackerjack’s run we would be seeing some evidence of that.
I agree with this, and you have used good examples of this issue in other horses. Having watched Crackers in the past, he’s certainly a strong horse and it looked like it would take a good rider to know how to balance him appropriately. But I’ve watched the horse run, and I never saw any indication that he might shatter his pastern while galloping. I’ve never heard any of anyone else (besides Denny) forecasting such an injury, ever.
Certainly there are misleading records out there, and horses at levels they shouldn’t be. But people are trying to point to an incident that happened one year and two successful 4* cross-country runs ago, that had nothing to do with the manner of his ultimate failing, as an indicator for this. That’s not enough for me, and I’ve seen absolutely zero other support that anyone else saw this coming. If there was some I’d love to know about it, because with all my heart I want to stop this from ever happening again.
No one gives a hoot about my opinion but I’ve been thinking about this all day and I want to throw it out there.
I’m a LL rider that will likely never advance beyond BN/N and I have zero ambition to progress past that point or to do recognized events.
In my opinion, the x-country phase is about stamina, and navigating natural obstacles at speed over varying terrain. And by varying terrain I do not refer to drastic changes in footing but natural changes including inclines/declines. I find the galloping over roads very distasteful and somewhat lazy- just sod it over for crying out loud and secure the sod.
I like watching (and riding) technical courses, because they keep my mind busy. I get lazy over long gallops- but I jump 2’6". Technical courses should be reserved for the show jumping ring, where the fences fall down and the footing is consistent.
IMO, not that it counts for much, the governing bodies of eventing have shown riders who they are and they aren’t going to change. They could implement new rules or regulations regarding course design but they haven’t. Until professional, UL riders see courses they don’t like and don’t think are safe and then scratch, nothing will change. I know ULRs are all running businesses and this doesn’t sound like a viable option, but really, can they afford not to? People will keep riding these courses and horses (and riders) will keep dying until riders, trainers, and owners are willing to sacrifice financially to hopefully procure change.
@Ruth0552 you make some valid points. And I give a hoot about your opinion. :winkgrin:
Changes in footing should be managed and we need more information about how such changes negatively impact soundness.
As for poor courses and poor footing, I find that the UL riders are the first to scratch. At least here in Area II, if the footing is too hard, I think you see the scratches mostly at the UL sand mostly by the pros. I worry much more about the less educated folks who do not realize how poor footing can injure a horse. We need to continue, and amp up our research on such factors as footing and changes in footing. For sure.
The events that have super footing and safe courses typically draw in top riders.
I do not think it is fair to blame UL riders for unsafe courses.
Interesting. I visited with a British friend today who was a groom for years for the big events and she was recounting how horses died at almost all of the big events back in those days. She said it was so commonplace that it was almost unremarkable. She was shocked at the recent posts by he-who-shan’t-be-named in which it was argued that the long format was safer for horses and riders. She then went on the list off the names of riders who died or seriously disabled as a result of eventing. Sobering.
A few years ago, I lamented to my vet (who has worked with and currently works with many of the very top UL horses in Virginia and Maryland) about the loss of the long format. He gave me a puzzled look and said how grateful he is that the long format is no more. He then talked about “back in the day” when he watched horse after horse, come into the clinic spent and done. If not a career ending injury, those horses were exhausted and spent, and were not rideable for weeks and sometimes months afterwards
I remember going to Rolex and seeing the tent go up around a horse, and the trailers rushing off to vet clinics, and the ambulances whizzing across the grounds. It was nothing at all like the 4* Rolex of today. No comparison.
I love the LL 3-days we have these days. They are fun and educational and really help some horses and riders gain confidence.
[QUOTE=RAyers;n9909972]
I have plenty of journal papers on fractures and failures in racehorses. A good data dive into the scientific research will bring up hundreds of investigator initiated studies, case reports, investigations pertaining to the association between fractures, track surfaces, age, breed, training, and so forth. At the Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse Summit IV, he presented a very through assessment entitled, “Training and the Musculoskeletal System.” There is clear associations between training and fracture rates based on not allowing the cellular regenerative aspects of the skeleton to repair damage from prior training. Therefore, fatigue fractures begin to develop at the microstructual level that can catastrophically fail in competition, especially if the footing varies in softness (as the tendon/muscle support structures get tired, they can no longer support the bone effectively).
Don’t these same studies also show other factors - I believe the sex, age and breeding of the horse come into it and also state that these kinds of damages can occur over an extremely long period of time - Boyd had only been riding Crackerjack for a few years. The studies I have seen were conducted on California racehorses and aren’t conclusive but do call for a deeper look into ALL the causes of these kinds of fractures. The sad thing is that we have been using horses for centuries for work and war - now the only use left for them is in sporting endeavors. Without Boyd’s example and others like him to inspire people to start riding, interest in the equestrian lifestyle would dry up and horses would go the way of all the other things that have no place in modern life We should be careful what we wish for when there are no more events left, new riders stop entering the sport and horses are discarded in droves. Look for improvements, yes - demonize the sport and its riders - not unless there is intentional cruelty and that’s not the case here.
yes!
And then we have a tribe of people who drink the koolaid and have been convinced that current day eventing is less safe than it was in those videos.
excellent point, thank you.
But the sport is growing, memberships and entries are growing, and despite the demonizing, there are enough people who carry on.
Remember seeing Boyd having a really good round on XC at Galway a few years ago on Trading Aces. he suddenly pulled him up and left the field saying that he felt like the horse was tired and ‘didn’t want to push him.’ Just like any modern sport, the demands from the public grow. Good horse people try to make the right decisions but nothing is perfect. In this case, Boyd pulled up immediately, jumped off his horse and held him - its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback in particular situations but nobody has a crystal ball. All sports have their issues - NFL with concussions, mixed martial arts with brain trauma…the way forward is to be positive and offer assistance to consult on these kinds of things - not to point the finger at one of your own when they are already devastated.
…Until the developers grab the land and squeeze events into unsuitable venues with multiple types of footing. Believe me, there are way fewer people riding and keeping horsesin 2017 than there were in 1917!
Good points, also let’s not leave out the spectators who pay to see a ‘good show’ and the ever increasing shrinkage of land available for XC courses. The ECLR states that 6,000 acres of open land is being lost to development every day in the US - now that’s a frightening statistic if ever I heard one and one that will continue to make course designers compromise. Why not point the finger at the greedy councils who allow re zoning of equestrian lands so that they can get more property tax money?
couldn’t have said it better myself.
me thinks it was more DE being straight up and calling a piece of Athletic Equipment, Athletic Equipment that bruised all those brave ul riders whose backs are up more than anything else.
is Eventing the horse persons equivalent to The (American) Gun Debate?
what is the magic number of horse/human deaths before the fei gets serious, or is it going to be left up to a whistle blower to get onto PETA?
I’ve been silently following this thread and can’t believe some of the comments. Go on YouTube and put in the search bar “Horse Trial 1980.” Click on videos like Badminton Horse Trials 1993. How are those courses not twisty and trappy? With the repeated bounces, combinations, etc, there are so many near misses and in 3 different videos I saw at least 6 rotational falls. One into deep water where the rider gets back on the horse and continues. Please tell me how eventing now is more dangerous?
In my opinion, the reason eventing is considered more dangerous now than in “the good old days” (just…no) is because when something happens anywhere in the world, nowadays you hear about it instantly. You don’t have to wait for the paper to write about it and print it, nope, now it’s plastered all over the internet. With a video link to go with it. Maybe even a GIF.
I was a DE fan, even thought about hauling to him over the winter because I enjoyed reading his posts and have a horse that sounds a bit like a young Rosie. But personal connection to the horse and personal convictions aside, I thought what he posted so shortly after CJ was euthanized was classless.
I had a horse that had a DDFT injury to his left hind. After rehab and slowly bringing him back into work, we got the all-clear from the vet to start jumping again. 6 months later the barn girls went to bring him in from the pasture and he wouldn’t move. Sometime overnight he had broken his RIGHT hind in 2 places above his hock and I had to put him down. Ive always wondered if the DDFT injury to his left put more stress on his right and by my continuing to ride and compete him, if that didn’t cause or at least contribute to the fatal injury. I still blame myself, and I know Boyd is blaming himself. A high profile figure like DE publicly shaming Boyd (maybe not calling him by name but come on, everyone knew who he was saying “pushed poor Crackers beyond his ability”) is just…ugh. I can’t even find the right words. Trashy and self-serving maybe.
Not a fan any longer.
The number of falls/rotational falls I saw was horrendous. Some in which the rider was down and stayed down (Karen stives) others where the horse rolled over a German rider, and rider got back on and finished the course. Or one where a horse called Gold(en?) Chip actually kicked the rider in the head or upper body as it was getting up. That rider was also legged back up and on to “finish for the team.” That’s just 3 of many. Falls, slips, rotational falls… Riders shaken and injured remounting… And horses coming off courses so exhausted they needed oxygen and IV drips. Might Tango comes to mind.
i agree with your friend… Probably these things were common. And today there’s the instantaneous factor of social media.
i know there’s no “data” on the olden days of long format, but surely there’s enough people around who still remember the “glory days” to put together a fairly comprehensive list of falls and injuries.
Obviously resting on the idea that eventing is safer is not enough. We need to keep trying to improve the sport, adding in research and science. From my perspective though it doesn’t seem that the governing bodies are really pushing for that, however. Then again I’m a dedicated LL rider who is frequently confused by how the upper levels of the sport are governed and by who.
Finally, we have to accept that no matter how we try we will never be able to compensate for every eventuality. That’s the risk we take.
The only place that the “old courses vs. new courses” argument has in this discussion is to determine the best, safest elements of both and use them to reduce risk in the future. Otherwise, it’s a moot point. They both had/have dangerous elements and we should be able to do better than the death rates on BOTH types of courses.
Agree or disagree with Denny’s posts (either in content or presentation), the line that everyone repeats about waiting to address this issue out of respect for Boyd and Crackerjack’s other connections is bull. Sad as it is, a horse death represents a kairotic moment when all eyes are on the issue and there’s an opportunity to make a change. Now is the time.
a video of cross country at Fair Hill 1993 was posted above. For comparison, here is a video link to Fair Hill 2017.
I’m confused by your series of posts on old-time courses versus today’s courses. What is your point? That because there have always been deaths in eventing it is okay for this to continue?
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