Boyd Martin's Crackerjack Euthanized at Pau

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Jealoushe

Gotcha, why are riders in charge of this?

This is is a VERY small boutique sport…and non profit. The vast vast majority of people volunteering their time as a part of
governance are not compensated like a professional board of a large public company. So pretty much the only people who are going to give up time to this are riders or otherwise passionate about the sport.

So yeah…a lot are riders or former riders. People that are passionate and care about the sport to volunteer their time AND work Well with other people (listen as well as have their own opinions). And that is a very small pool of people!!!

[luvmyhackney]

@JER OTE=JER;n9911124]

Racing keeps these stats for breakdowns on the track and has made adjustments to footing nad/or dragging schedules because of it. Eventing could do the same via incident reports.

If you want death traps, you really need to do some time traveling. Take a trip to the 1976 Olympics. Then fast forward to Kentucky for the 1978 World Championships. Those were the good old days, right?

[/QUOTE]

@ jer I wasn’t alive back then and don’t know the full history of eventing and don’t claim too. I only know what I’ve seen in the past 10 years of watching this sport as a spectator looking in. Which is a lot of falls and horses injured and too much loss of life for a sport that is supposed to be fun to watch.

I really enjoy eventing, I just wish it wasn’t so tragic.

[Jealoushe]

@bornfreenowexpensive

This is is a VERY small boutique sport…and non profit. The vast vast majority of people volunteering their time as a part of
governance are not compensated like a professional board of a large public company. So pretty much the only people who are going to give up time to this are riders or otherwise passionate about the sport.

So yeah…a lot are riders or former riders. People that are passionate and care about the sport to volunteer their time AND work Well with other people (listen as well as have their own opinions). And that is a very small pool of people!!!

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

Another study relevant to this chat;

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/111180/ky-necropsy-program-disproves-bad-step-myth

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

As someone who has enjoyed, liked, and shared many of Denny’s posts over the past years, I have to say that I’m just completely disgusted by his behavior. I also enjoyed the book he published several years ago which actually offered rather good advice to people trying to become professionals in the horse world.

Did I always agree with everything he’s posted in the past? No. But this has become just absurdly personal and unhinged. I can’t believe Denny–through no fault of Boyd or anyone else–has made the death of a beloved horse about himself.

I realize this is perhaps the most minor component of the whole mess but I really feel betrayed for ever making a contribution to his page and Internet presence at all. It’s one thing to say crazy stuff to your significant other but this is unreal.

For those of you who haven’t followed him or aren’t on FB, I just want to add that he does (did) post about a bunch of things and not every person who liked or commented on his page sides with him on this one. Again, I’m more horrified by the day.

He has supported the careers of some young riders in the past whose names are associated with him and in some ways I feel most sorry for them, if this in any way damages them.

[HeyJealousy]

@devvie_continued

Here’s the latest from Denny’s page

"You people who are attacking me are not attacking someone who will not fight back. When I broke my neck, spent my 70th birthday in a halo, got told by my doctor to quit riding, the next summer, just to say f*&%$ you, I went out and jumped four feet.

The water jump photos are from this summer, and I am 76.

Which is more than 99% of you candy asses will ever do.
So, if you think that your key board bullying frightens me, maybe you should think of what damage YOU are doing to your own sport, by being too cowardly to take a stand against the FEI, or whoever is doing this to the sport to create all these deaths.
And think what being a bully, in a witch hunt says about YOUR courage. Any little weasel can be brave in a mob.

"

Hmm. I’m pretty sure most of those “Candy asses” are not yet in their seventies and also might have the common sense to quit while they’re ahead. Just my two cents.

[GoneAway]

I think Denny is in a very “safe” place right now to criticize riders, as he doesn’t have to make a living off riding these UL courses anymore. So it’s very convenient to sit in that comfortable, hidden place behind a computer screen and make the comments he’s making. His “you candy asses” post was highly distasteful and if I had respect for him before, that took quite a bit of it away. Sure, he’s BTDT, contributed to the sport in the past and is a legendary horseman, he has cred. But his recent rants reek of self-importance and are not focusing on the issue of this particular incident.

Which is…what specifically contributed to this horse’s break down? Footing across the course? The change in footing consistency? A preexisting weakness? It needs to be examined to determined what exactly the causing factor was and what, if anything, can be changed in future courses to reduce that risk.

Or, we can just b!tch. When called on what he has done to address this issue, Emerson posted this 11 minutes ago on FB:

[I]Some safety ideas that I shared with USEA, but that got ignored. They never even acknowledged my emails. I do not say these are wise, or doable, but I share them as a starting point for discussion—

1. In the American Endurance Riding Conference, ANY horse death triggers a full inquiry, with potential penalties for abusive riding.
2. Other organizations have called in outside help, such as what did YOU car racers do to cut down on accidents, what did YOU ski racers do, that sort of thing.
3. Consider “penalizing” a rotational fall. Such as, the moment one happens, apparent rider injury or not, that rider gets instantly “set down” for a certain number of days. Two rotationals within a certain time fram, a longer set down period. Show the riders the sport is SERIOUS about rotationals. Make riders advocates for safer riding by hitting them where it hurts, their incomes.
4. After a fatality., horse or human, or possibly even after a rotational fall, have a hearing with the course designer. Have the course designers be held accountable if so deemed appropriate.
5. Consider that the speeds we use today are the same speeds we used 50–60 years ago, when courses were more natural and flowing, and XC time was more doable. Maybe, with all the technical questions of today, we should experiment with slower speeds. Or a return to more “galloping” courses.
6. Have a mandatory pre XC rider meeting, far enough before. Get their ideas. Change fences they seriously feel are bad fences.
7. Consider more mandatory use of ground lines.
   So, seven possible places to start. There have to be many others. When you talk to those in power, so often they just brush you aside, tell you they have it covered. Be unbrushable!"[/I]

Ok. I think some of those might be helpful. But please…emails? I send emails all the time that don’t get looked at. If there’s something that truly needs to get taken care of, it’s followed up with a phone call or (most likely) a face-to-face. Probably multiple meetings until that thing gets taken care of. Given the amount of vitrol in recent posts I was under the impression Mr. Emerson had publicly appeared before the USEA/FEI/anyone who would listen multiple times and fought for changes, but was ignored. Hence his distaste for the sport and people that run it. Hence his hatred for UL riders and what the sport has become. But based on his above post, that doesn’t sound like the case?

Show up. Can’t show up? Call. Call every day.

Emails…spare us.

[HeyJealousy]

I wonder what Bruce Davidson, Mike Plumb or any of the other riders who rode with Denny or around that time period would comment on this debate?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

There’s really nothing funny about this whole sorry affair but I did see someone post something that made me chuckle in kind of a morbid way:

“Who would have ever thought that UL eventers could throw Internet shade with the skill of a bunch of teenage girls?”

[AlternativeID]

@Jealoushe

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

Another study relevant to this chat;

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/111180/ky-necropsy-program-disproves-bad-step-myth

This study is exactly what we should be requiring in this sport. When a horse dies, this type of investigation needs to happen. Even this study might be relevant to what happened to CJ. Read everything. Demand that each and every death have this type of investigation.

[devvie_continued]

@AlternativeID

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac…-bad-step-myth

This study is exactly what we should be requiring in this sport. When a horse dies, this type of investigation needs to happen. Even this study might be relevant to what happened to CJ. Read everything. Demand that each and every death have this type of investigation.

Relevant, timely, new information, at least to me. Thanks for posting this.

[NCRider]

I don’t know about everyone else on here, but my experience with people in their late 70’s, including 2 of my grandparents and many of their friends, has shown me that many if not most of them lose their filters, particularly about things that are important to them and particularly if they are no longer dependent on “keeping the peace” to make a living. Just for fun, try engaging an older relative about a controversial topic at Thanksgiving this year. Record what they say, disagree with them in a combative and dismissive way, and then record the response to that. Transcribe it. Then read the transcription. FB just allows us to all be parties to that conversation.

The fact that these ULR’s are engaging with this tells me more about them than it does about Denny. None of them like to look in the mirror. All of them are happy enough to sell out the sport for money even if they acknowledge the horses are most definitely not enjoying motorbike style courses. Even if it makes them feel a little uncomfortable. The successful ones sign up any time there’s $$ on offer. XC at WEG is going to be essentially a speed class over fixed obstacles in a derby field with a couple of trips outside the field and back. With questionable footing. Some of them will raise their eyebrows. All of them will ride it. Most of them will gush about how awesome the venue was and how much fun their owners had. These are the same people who effectively boycott londstanding traditional events unless the organizers have spent a small fortune on upgrading the footing. But they don’t have VIP tents and prize money.

The fact that they all come out publicly swinging whenever any of them are criticized means their public opinion is meaningless.

OTOH, the amount of barn gossip that goes on is pretty informative about what they really think when they’re not too busy circling the wagons (in general, no talking about this specific instance)

It’s no different than any barn in America. Give the boarders enough truth serum (or wine) and you’ll find out whose horse really needs to retire, whose horse needs a new career, who is over mounted, who should have scratched from the last show b/c xc was hard, who is hoping, to get another season out of their elderly campaigner who is a little ouchy, etc. etc. etc. But god forbid someone from another program say anything.

[NCRider]

@Impractical Horsewoman

There’s really nothing funny about this whole sorry affair but I did see someone post something that made me chuckle in kind of a morbid way:

“Who would have ever thought that UL eventers could throw Internet shade with the skill of a bunch of teenage girls?”

Of course they can, they spend all of their time surrounded by a barn full of them.

[GoneAway]

@Jealoushe

Makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

Another study relevant to this chat;

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/111180/ky-necropsy-program-disproves-bad-step-myth

Very interesting and agreed, very relevant. As you (or others) have already said, does the horse’s nutrition play a potential role in this type of breakdown? Condition/conditioning schedule and types of surfaces used in conditioning? Previous falls or injuries? Is there a way to more efficiently scan for musculoskeletal conditions that could make a horse more at risk for breakdown? Combine that with an examination of the course could yield very useful data for riders to use in the future. But who exactly runs a study like this, and who pays for it?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Honestly…I can rapidly think of MANY rules and procedures now in place that are directly on point to most of the seven “starting” places Denny points out. A fall…any fall IS penalized with elimination now (not back in the day). There are now losses of qualifications with a horse fall. Mandatory medical review before a rider is permitted to ride again. Mandatory reports and reviews done by officials. Follow up reports on any fall. There are rider reps now with mandatory meetings. Things ARE being done and looked at to be done better.

There are are ways to stand up and be involved.

As as far as demanding investigations…remember the sport has more than one governance. At FEI competitions…the rules and requirements into investigations are different than at a national HT. And then add in the laws of the jurisdiction where the accident took place. Not all owners want or can foot the costs…so for all thoughts demanding more studies and more investigations, I agree…but who pays? There has been a TON of effort and work to fundraise for this and yet…small, not profitable boutique sport…means funding is always hard.

So so what is the answer? Higher entry fees? Higher membership fees?

[NCRider]

They could start with properly recording all horse falls as horse falls so that riders can’t avoid the mandatory sit down.

And maybe we should revisit grounding a rider for the rest of the competition any time they have a horse fall, not just eliminating the horse that falls.

And maybe we should consider permanently dequalifying from a particular level any horse that falls more than once at that level.

There’s a fine line between (a) mentally downplaying the seriousness of horse falls to avoid becoming too afraid to ride and (b) becoming immune to the harm that you do to your partner when you put your horse in a position to hit the ground.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

Watching as this whole saga unfolds and just shaking my head - don’t know what to think next at some points, but I’m trying to think for myself.

Lots of the posts in this thread lambast Denny for not being willing to be more involved at present - he should “be the change” and all that. And while he’s not involved in upper level eventing at present, he has been in the past and not just as long format rider. I clipped the following from the Tamarack Hill internet site and am assuming all is true (have not fact checked): [INDENT]
Denny has forged a career with horses which culminated in his receiving the both the USEA’s Wofford Cup for lifetime service to eventing, the American Riding Instructor Certification Program (ARICP) Lifetime Achievement Award, induction in 2006 into the USEA Hall of Fame, and included leadership in such organizations as the USEA (twice president), the USET (vice-president of Eventing for seven years), the USEF (on the Executive Committee), and Chairman of the Breeder’s Committee of the AHSA.[/INDENT]

USEA president twice. USET VP for Eventing for seven years. USEF Executive Committee. These are not exactly trivial positions within the sport. I don’t know when in time he served in these roles or what lead to him leaving them. Was he possibly trying to effect changes from within and unable to do that to his satisfaction? As someone who poured years into a volunteer organization only to have a lot of what I had worked to implement be abandoned when the political tides shifted, I am sympathetic to that possibility.

Denny is a pretty savvy guy, and I believe he has been very intentional in building his presence on FB and using that presence to influence the followers of eventing and other horse sports in accordance with his current beliefs - many of which are not things he would have dwelled on or been concerned about when he was at the height of his riding career.

My first impression was that Denny’s response to Crackerjack’s death was primarily an emotional knee jerk reaction. As the back and forth, post and delete, attack and defend has continued, I do get a sense that he has gone off the rails in the thick of the melee, and as a result of that, my respect for him and what he has done with his platform has diminished.

I have posted this before, but my role in the sport is that of a fan, an occasional volunteer, and a weenie lower level wannabe (working on it! jumped an 18" vertical last month!). I chose to be a fan of this sport as a child because galloping across the country on a horse and jumping all the things looked like the most fun ever. And for that reason alone, I want to see the sport continue - at all the levels. I believe there have been many advances, and the current state is probably safer with horses treated better than in the good old days. But I do think a line has been crossed with some courses and designers. Kentucky 2017 - inside the line. Pau 2017 - outside the line. What can be done to make sure all the courses and the highest-viz events (Olympics, WEG) are inside the line?

[LadyB]

Denny is now taking a break from Social Media. What did I just watch on facebook in the last 24 hours?

[GoneAway]

@LadyB

Denny is now taking a break from Social Media. What did I just watch on facebook in the last 24 hours?

Put a random nuclear explosion at the end of this, and it would be about right.

[LadyB]

@GoneAway

Put a random nuclear explosion at the end of this, and it would be about right.

:lol: pretty much!

[Larksmom]

I would like to see this conversation veer toward this last page of constructive ideas instead the bad vibes from Denny. As far as penalizing fallers, who you gonna penalize? The faller? The course designer? Builder? Nice to get fined if you are dead or in a coma.
Maybe, the TDs need to NOT certify courses that are dangerous. But who decides what are dangerous courses, as I have said b4, Burghley looks to me to be the toughest on the planet. And yet, horse after horse skip around there. And not everyone there is there to win. I think speed needs to be seriously looked at, but also not so many trappy courses need to be built.