Breed influence

[Warmblood1]

Like others are saying, you have to look at the horse in front of you. While some breeds are quite prepotent, such as the TB, many horses vary greatly within the breed. For example, I have a APHA gelding that is largely halter bred - yet is actually pretty correct and a very good jumper. He’s 15 now and has remained sound for the past 10 years of my ownership. He is my first flight foxhunter and looks like a WB cross, all aspects that are very unusual for the typical halter bred horse.

Some registries have specific breeding directions because horses within the breed vary greatly - an example would be KWPN who has both the Dutch harness horse and dressage/jumper type horses registered under the KWPN umbrella - yet each direction of breeding varies a great deal in type.

Like some others have said, you truly have to look at each horses type and beyond that, what each horse is known to stamp onto their offspring and reproduce. You can choose an exception stallion but if he does not carry a lot of homozygous characteristics that are guaranteed to be reproduced in his offspring, breeding will forever be a gamble with that particular stallion. That is the issue with outcrosses and choosing the mountain horse type - there are not many homozygous characteristics, therefore, the outcome of the offspring are wildly variable and difficult to predict/control. That is why it is also so important to also choose proven sires and dams to know what each reliably passes on - one can with relative accuracy then predict the results of the offspring and breed for a certain type.

[Warmblood1]

[quote=“DownYonder, post:15, topic:781928, full:true”].

Edited to add that the horse in the second photo is apparently a partbred CB stallion.

[/quote]

Who is the stallion in the last pic? He’s nice.

[DownYonder]

@Warmblood1

Who is the stallion in the last pic? He’s nice.

Info from the website:

[fordtraktor]

I am not sure what the point of breeding grade horses is. You can find a million grade horses out there. Just buy one you like and don’t play Russian roulette with the gene pool, IMO.

[MadTrotter]

My elitist heart agrees with you, and were we in Europe or the UK, I’d be with you 100% but we have a real shortage of and market for these crossbred types. Well-mannered second generation draft crosses who aren’t too fancy but clean up cute, jump around a local show, go hunter pacing/trail riding, stay serviceably sound…these horses go up into the 5 figures quickly. If you want a pure warm blood pedigree with this kind of horse, you’re looking at tens of thousands more.

So I’m not sure I can jump on the purebred only train when we have SO few warmbloods available for the amateur markets, and what IS available is expensive, overbred, and increasingly unsound.

[Scribbler]

@MadTrotter

My elitist heart agrees with you, and were we in Europe or the UK, I’d be with you 100% but we have a real shortage of and market for these crossbred types. Well-mannered second generation draft crosses who aren’t too fancy but clean up cute, jump around a local show, go hunter pacing/trail riding, stay serviceably sound…these horses go up into the 5 figures quickly. If you want a pure warm blood pedigree with this kind of horse, you’re looking at tens of thousands more.

So I’m not sure I can jump on the purebred only train when we have SO few warmbloods available for the amateur markets, and what IS available is expensive, overbred, and increasingly unsound.

The British ammie market fills this niche in part with cobs which are a type rather than a breed, and also large ponies to some extent. North American Western riders can get QH at a relative bargain, not top cutting horses but good trail and all around horses. So getting a horse that’s neither a fire cracker OTTB with potential racing injuries or a WB that requires a home equity loan to afford is a good goal for the English rider market.

However there are different levels of draft cross. There are serious breeders who are trying for a type for a specific market, and turn out some nice horses, typically xTB. Nice enough OTTB mares are affordable with a draft or xdraft stallion.

That’s different from a one off breeding of a WB to a xdraft trail and pack horse, looking for a jumper.

[fordtraktor]

In that case I would breed the mare in question to an older-style, known quantity WB stallion that passes on temperament and soundness. Maybe follow the new thread on that.

Just avoiding the more controversial lines will help a lot. Breeding is such a crapshoot and so expensive, I’d want to aim for a more valuable result.

[MadTrotter]

I want there to be more ammie QHs for this market but everyone wants 16h+ and not downhill built.

I agree breeders should avoid these lines but since warmbloods are still pretty scarce they are really purpose bred…we need a bunch of “back to origin” all purpose types.

[MadTrotter]

Totally agree re: OP mare, was just thinking about our ammie market for non-western horses. I’ve been trying to buy “this horse” for my husband for over a year for less than 25k and I guess I’ll have to travel for it…

[beowulf]

Have you considered a Standardbred? They come in all shapes and sizes and are dirt cheap. I have one that is the poster child Husband Horse. My SO is a big guy at 6ft, 220b, and while Hank isn’t tall (16.1h maybe) he is beefy and has been the best babysitter with almost zero training on my behalf.

[fordtraktor]

They are sure hard to find! I think Lauren Romanelli has one right now in KY. It doesn’t dressage yet but extensive trail miles. I see them come through her sale barn often and she is very trustworthy as a seller.

[fordtraktor]

Maybe also look for a Gelders horse? They are good all around types and more old fashioned Dutch horses. Just nice horses bred for temperament and all-around usefulness.

I totally agree that most people just need a good QH. I have one but she’s leased to my trainer for lessons. She is a rockstar and very capable of Third Level/has half passes and changes if you ride her well. She’s also kind enough to do walk-trot complete beginners. That is so hard to find! She’s very downhill and stocky.

[Scribbler]

We have a harness track here and so lots of OTSB. They are not as flighty as OTTB but they are still plenty hot, and they very often take a bit of time to learn to canter in balance. Lots pace. I have watched several at our barn with ammies of varying degrees of skill and they honestly are all still a work in progress. I have not however seen one go through a complete training with an actual trainer, likely because given a choice most sport horse trainers would go for an OTTB over and OTSB. The SB are objectively nice horses but their first calling is not English sport.

[beowulf]

It is really unfortunate you haven’t seen success with them where you are. Check New Vocation’s website sometime – they post STBs geared for English disciplines and you can watch videos to get a feel for what’s breed standard. Their type is all over the map. I prefer Pacers - they tend to be more elastic over their back and better movers (for dressage) as a whole.

I agree there is some breed bias at play and that does impact who has them and how well they are represented in English disciplines - and there’s plenty of poor representation out there. If you are on a budget though, and looking for LL English career, there is no reason a sound STB cannot do it.

There is an STB track quite close to me. Its cast-offs/retirees have been supplementing local English barns for decades. Without the neck tattoo, I don’t think many people would know they were STBs. They are also very common in our state-funded Mounted Forces program. I grew up where it was normal to see them in every discipline, even H/J – so that may color my perspective.

[Dressagelvr]

These threads always baffle me. There’s no way to know what to expect. Breeding is a crapshoot.

Take the best of the best warmbloods which have selective breeding going back to the 1700s. Still there are many average to below average horses produced. Why? There is NO certainty. You can stack the odds in your favor, but it guarantees nothing.

Breeding random breeds together and hoping for the best is just a bad idea. And back yard breeders just infuriate me.

[Scribbler]

@Dressagelvr

These threads always baffle me. There’s no way to know what to expect. Breeding is a crapshoot.

Take the best of the best warmbloods which have selective breeding going back to the 1700s. Still there are many average to below average horses produced. Why? There is NO certainty. You can stack the odds in your favor, but it guarantees nothing.

Breeding random breeds together and hoping for the best is just a bad idea. And back yard breeders just infuriate me.

To some extent though a mediocre purpose bred horse can be better at the intended task than an off breed at the given job. I see a lot of ammies quite happy with their mediocre or slightly crappy WB. They can do first level dressage way better than a pacing OTSB. Any failed OTTB can out run an Arabian. A QH with cow sense is innate compared to a WB that thinks cows are aliens from Mars with death laser guns .

That said random breeding is very random. I’ve seen some awful weedy little TB/QH crosses. You’d think it would be a great cross. Then I met one that had the best of both so to speak. He was big, muscled, he could rear like a TB and buck like a QH and was really fast and really catty and just a gorgeous monster. He’d put his owner in the hospital previously.

As far as breeding outcomes the TB industry breeds for one metric, exceptional speed at an early age. And even there you get an awful lot of failure to attain that. So if TB can’t predict and get results there really is a randomness to breeding.

[colorfan]

It’s a small world but tForrest Fellow is the grandsire of the Cleveland Bay my friend is interested in.

[goodhors]

Forest Fellow is a darn nice CB horse. Guess I would like to know what pure mare was the dam of the nearby Cleveland Bay stallion.

[DownYonder]

@Warmblood1

Who is the stallion in the last pic? He’s nice.

Legacy Mover Pedigree

@goodhors

Forest Fellow is a darn nice CB horse. Guess I would like to know what pure mare was the dam of the nearby Cleveland Bay stallion.

Plug his name in here and see if you get a hit.

[goodhors]

The nearby CB stallion is not named. It was not mentioned to be a partbred CB. It was not Forest Fellow, he just came up as the sire of the partbred CB in the second, ridden horse photo,.