Breeding Big Brown

[KatherineC]

I am a huge fan of the horse and think his is brilliant. His ridability is exceptional and the move he made in the Preakness was breath taking.
But at the end of the day, this is a horse with bad feet.

They are going to breed hundreds of mares and many of his babies will not be successful racehorses. Some may be exceptional racehorses, but odds dictate that most won’t and they will need to be useful in another discipline. If they have bad feet it will be difficult for them.

With all the recent talk of breakdowns, breeding for speed (not soundness) and horses being sold for meat after they can no longer race, is this something people are thinking about?

[halo]

There have been precious few brilliant horses without some issues. Thats what breeding is all about, trying to breed the best of the qualities to weed out the worst. I would imagine the intelligent thing would be to breed mares with strong sound feet to him.

There are a lot of horses out there with little or no problems or issues. The problem with them is they also offer no brilliance. Breed shapers like Danzig and Mr. Prospector all had major issues to contend with, but also offered brilliance which is extremely difficult to find. Imagine producing a Big Brown with strong feet. That will be the next step in breeding to him.

[Galileo1998]

Nearctic has issues with a quarter crack through most of his career.

Northern Dancer had a quarter crack develop late in his two year old season that first meant he had to run in a bar shoe, and later had to be patched up to allow him to make the Kentucky Derby.

[titan]

Ditto halo & Galileo.

[flshgordon]

I am seriously amazed by those that can’t think of anything this horse could pass on besides bad feet. Seriously—how about the “what if he DOESN’T pass on bad feet”? If he didn’t, wouldn’t he be seriously worth breeding? There is no guarantee if he will or won’t pass on the bad feet and there’s no actual evidence as to WHY the bad feet exist. Heaven knows I have seen a lot of really bad farriers do some really bad stuff to horses–even ones that charge $200 for a set of shoes.

I think at this point the feet thing is an unknown and it is but a part of the whole picture that is Big Brown. The horse has great conformation, the ability to run on different surfaces–those things to me have to be factored in and what about the crazy idea of putting mares to him that have really good feet?

I just don’t get the point of blasting the horse purely because of his feet.

[Pronzini]

One of the horses that might have fit the bill of soundness, breeding and beautiful conformation was Citation–and he was a terrible sire. On the flip side, the great Nijinsky was sickle hocked and threw it. Many of the Slews are ridgelings including A P Indy. Storm Cats often have breathing issues. Danehills are often back at the knee like he was.

If you are going to breed perfect to perfect, you probably won’t breed many horses and chances are they will be slow. People have fixated on his feet partly because he’s in the white hot spotlight right now along with his shoer. But what about all of the wonderful qualities he brings to the table? Is it better to have a stallion that is mediocre overall but without glaring conformational problems or a brilliant stallion with a big flaw that you can try to breed around with the right mares?

I know which one I’d go to in a heartbeat. Talent like Big Brown has displayed is incredibly rare.

[LaurieB]

As a 2YO Big Brown had an abscess, followed by a second abscess.

Quick, everybody whose horses have NEVER had an abscess stand up and raise your hands. :lol:

Now he has a quarter crack. I guess he’s the only horse to ever have that happen too.

I honestly don’t understand why there’s so much talk about BB bad feet except that it gives the media something to talk about and gives non-horse people an angle they think they can understand.

From a breeding perspective, I would give TB breeders enough credit to think that when the time comes they will choose the mares they breed to BB with care.

[KatherineC]

Perhaps I am old school (no foot, no horse). People always breed horses with the best of intentions hoping that that the foal will inherit the best traits the mare and stallion have to offer. People think less about the foal that inherits the worst traits the parents have. These horses tend to wind up under the care of people who can’t afford $200 shoes or even regular trimming.

Breeding is a crap shoot at best. And I don’t feel that those at the top of the racing industry are thinking about how the cast offs will fare.

[Acertainsmile]

I’m wondering what kind of feet BB would have if he had been left as a pasture ornament… training can lead to all sorts of issues…now if his dam had a leg on sideways, passed it on to BB, I could see where there might be an issue!

[Acertainsmile]

[QUOTE=KatherineC;3253881]
Perhaps I am old school (no foot, no horse). People always breed horses with the best of intentions hoping that that the foal will inherit the best traits the mare and stallion have to offer. People think less about the foal that inherits the worst traits the parents have. These horses tend to wind up under the care of people who can’t afford $200 shoes or even regular trimming.

Breeding is a crap shoot at best. And I don’t feel that those at the top of the racing industry are thinking about how the cast offs will fare.[/QUOTE]

Where these “cast offs” end up is not entirely the breeders responsiblity, nor does it really enter their thought process when breeding…

If someone cant afford to have a horses feet regulary trimmed, then they should not be owning horses in the first place.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=KatherineC;3253881]

Breeding is a crap shoot at best. And I don’t feel that those at the top of the racing industry are thinking about how the cast offs will fare.[/QUOTE]

Maybe I’m a little over sensitive because TB breeders are getting grief from all sides these days, but really, I have to ask…how many top end breeders do you know? And how many have you discussed this issue with? Because if you had, I think you might feel differently. We are not the callous, unthinking, unable-to-plan-ahead group that you seem to think.

[EventerAJ]

I had an interesting chat with some farriers yesterday. They work on all sorts of horses, from sales yearlings to broodmares to sport/racehorses. They agreed that MOST of the typical “bad TB feet” we all complain about are MAN-MADE problems.

It starts with the sales, they said. Sales agents and buyers want “pretty feet,” and almost all of the yearlings wear shoes. Sometimes the wall gets rasped way too much, just to have that clean, compact look to the foot. So the horses’ feet take some abuse as yearlings… then come the 2y/o sales. Pounding pounding on those small, thin feet… once again over-rasped to “look pretty” for the buyers during the sale. By the time a horse survives the 2 y/o sale, his feet are weaker. Add in more rigorous training, and the stress of galloping which pulls shoes out to the toe… and you get bad feet that are very difficult to recover.

This was how the farriers described it… quite the eye-opener for me.

[Due_s_Mom]

[QUOTE=LaurieB;3253703]
As a 2YO Big Brown had an abscess, followed by a second abscess.

Quick, everybody whose horses have NEVER had an abscess stand up and raise your hands. :lol:

Now he has a quarter crack. I guess he’s the only horse to ever have that happen too.

I honestly don’t understand why there’s so much talk about BB bad feet except that it gives the media something to talk about and gives non-horse people an angle they think they can understand.

From a breeding perspective, I would give TB breeders enough credit to think that when the time comes they will choose the mares they breed to BB with care.[/QUOTE]

I will tell you this. In all the years that I have ridden and trained horses, until recently, I have never had a horse abscess and then only had my TB mare abscess due to a sloppy, arrogant farrier. So pardon me if I find them to not be the norm .

This horse has consistently had foot problems the entire time he has ran and evidently the trainer keeps running him, holding him together with whatever. So, yes that IS a tough horse but he still has lousy feet.

As to whether to not it is due to environment and not breeding, only time will tell

It’s tough enough to breed a nice sound animal that has some talent and longevity without throwing a possible problem with feet into the mix.

People need to get a bit smarter about what they are breeding for and how it might affect the breed down the road a generation or two

I believe you are giving many TB Breeders far too much credit . Their money comes from the sale of weanlings and yearlings and at that age soundness is not generally a problem or a concern but the breeders will still get their money. It will be interesting to see what BB produces in his first four years at stud, how many actually race and how many have soundness issues

[Equilibrium]

I also have to say I believe most foot problems are man made as well. The very nature of trying keeping a horse with the types of problems going is a task in itself. Shoes on and off from probably the time of their yearling year.

I’m sorry but I have had a few horses come to be with dreadful feet. A change in nutrition, and I don’t mean big fancy expensive hoof supplements, and time to grow out has worked amazing wonders. At the moment BB is not in the position to have his feet grow out a bit so to speak.

And I second the annoying TB breeders don’t give a crap about what they breed aspect. You might want to look around some showjumping barns and see the hardware on those feet for crying out loud. And most of it is from the nature of hard competition. These are stallions people are breeding to and these are stallions that as younsters passed stallion grading with their feet. So lets just look outside the box a bit and see what’s around. I’m always amazed when I’m passed a comment of wow your warmblood has great feet. Because apparently even with all the testing ect, there seems to be a bunch of warmbloods out there with bad feet. I just really think proper trimming from early on and proper nutrion go a long way in foot health. I am probably wrong, but I seem to have horses with very good feet and they suffer from very few problems with abcesses, ect.

Terri

[Catsdorule-sigh]

Chicken Or The Egg…Which Came First?

Well, there you have it- Are Big Brown’s feet problems inherited or due to other circumstances as described by EventerAJ and Equilibrium? Does anyone know what his feet were like before he began racing, training, or getting prepped for a sale?

We hear a lot about soundness issues in specific lines but in the case of BB, what are those soundness issues? Are they weak feet or leg problems? Does anyone know, I’d like to find out.

I’ve had a sound, shoeless-all-her-life horse “gravel.” The one and only foot problem in her life. I’ve had horses pull shoes off front feet and then require a little repair when they pulled a bit of hoof off with them. All of those horses had good, sound feet but things happen. One slip and that front foot doesn’t leave the ground in time and bingo, a long striding horse can grab that front shoe with a back foot.

Unless someone knows the condition of his feet before the abscesses, who knows what came first? I would concur that for BB, the time isn’t there to take care of the foot properly. It would be nice if they allowed it and put him back in racing but we know that’s not going to happen.

I have just read Dorothy Ours wonderful book on Man O’ War. So Sir Barton was known to have ouchy feet and the implication in the book and elsewhere I’ve read is that his sire tended to pass that on. So that looks like inheritance.

Man O’ War lost a couple shoes racing and hurt a front tendon twice striking with a back foot. The first strike came in a race he should never have run in, due to track conditions. The second, I have no idea what caused it but there was concern with the high weights he would get running at 4 that the leg was compromised and might be injured again if he continued. Does this mechanical injury denote unsoundness in Man O’ War? Because his line was known for soundness.

Is BB’s line specifically known for bad feet and I mean the hoof wall and sole?

I think there are a lot of problems that can be inherited (crooked legs) and can have a tendency to appear,(bone density, arthritis) in the right conditions, that are inherited.

From what I’ve read in Ours book, the complaints about hard racing surfaces aren’t new. (The track that probably caused the first injury to Man O’ War was quite the opposite) Besides the quest for breeding for speed, it seems the quest for faster races resulted in harder and harder tracks, if what I’ve read is true. Recently, I read a complaint about hard tracks because they seal the surfaces. Maybe what is happening is the convergence of several problems in the quest for “more speed, a faster mile.”

For me regarding BB and his feet, it’s still a chicken-and-egg question. :uhoh:

[Xctrygirl]

Just as a side commentary here…

I think that Three Chimney’s proposed stud fee will greatly affect who can breed to Big Brown. And given that he could be a Triple crown winner… well then I really think that will limit who can breed to him.

So lets take a deep breath. This isn’t a case of a limitless book of state breds by a $25k stallion. He’s looking to soar north of $80k (Absolute worst case) and will likely hit 6 figures.

Sure progeny of 6 figure stallions do trickle down to the cheap side of things, how do you think I got my Unbridled??

But Three Chimneys has also been limiting their stallions books.

For example in 2006 they bred:

Albert the Great to 45 mares

Dynaformer to 112 mares

Exchange Rate to 92 mares

Medallist to 81 mares

Point Given to 78 mares

Rahy to 59 mares

Sky Mesa to 115 mares

Smarty Jones to 112 mares

War Chant to 59 mares

Yes its true 112 mares

Wheras Afleet Alex bred 169 mares.

Stephen got Even bred 145 mares.

Buddha bred 172

&

El Corredor bred 195!!!

I guess what I am getting at is the folks at Three Chimneys seem to be managing the future breeding generations better than other farms.

So I will have a little faith that Big Brown’s awesome lines of fortitude and distance (Damascus, Hail to Reason and Round Table) will hopefully shine through in his progeny.

~Emily

[Dazednconfused]

[QUOTE=KatherineC;3253478]
I am a huge fan of the horse and think his is brilliant. His ridability is exceptional and the move he made in the Preakness was breath taking.
But at the end of the day, this is a horse with bad feet.

They are going to breed hundreds of mares and many of his babies will not be successful racehorses. Some may be exceptional racehorses, but odds dictate that most won’t and they will need to be useful in another discipline. If they have bad feet it will be difficult for them.

With all the recent talk of breakdowns, breeding for speed (not soundness) and horses being sold for meat after they can no longer race, is this something people are thinking about?[/QUOTE]

How in the world is it possible to determine his ‘rideability’ as a 3 year old colt that’s a race horse? :lol::lol::lol:

[Xctrygirl]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;3254128]
How in the world is it possible to determine his ‘rideability’ as a 3 year old colt that’s a race horse? :lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

Actually I have spoken to many around him and he is considered one of the easier race horses, let alone 3 yr old colts, to deal with and ride.

~Emily

[grayarabpony]

The OP DOES bring up a good point, however. How many horses have had that many foot problems by the time they are a short 3? And it’s stupid to think that he may not pass them on. Geld him? No, he’s got too much talent. But he should only be bred to mares with excellent feet, and he’ll probably still have some offspring with crappy feet like his, minus his talent. TB breeders need to think more about breeding good horses that will at least hold up for 2 years for Chrissake.

[Melelio]

LaurieB, I’m STANDING UP! LOL I’ve rarely EVER had a horse with an abscess, in 30 years of horse ownership. My current two, even with separation from IR laminitis, never. I don’t pound them around a racetrack every day (or ever), either.

But talent doesn’t necessarily translate into talented babies (Secretariat…). Conformational issues should be taken seriously.

I think as well overall TB breeders either try to ‘nick’ their mares, looking only at paper mostly, or breed to what they can afford. Not try for soundness.

And the comment about wanting ‘faster races’? Huh? Even if you make a track hard for faster racing, that usually means ALL the horses would go that much faster, so what would be the benefit? Break the feet of the less hardy, so the unbroken feet horses could win? :lol: That comment didn’t make any sense to me.

I just wish there would be better decisions made in ALL breeders’ minds, in all breeds.