Oh but just think of the name possibilities…
Little Brown
Big Bertha
Big and Tall
Big Bay
Big Red
Mr. Brown
Brown Cow
Dr. Brown
:lol::lol:
Xcountrygrl wrote:
<<But Three Chimneys has also been limiting their stallions books.>>
They do limit them more than, say, Hill ‘n’ Dale and Coolmore, who traditionally are the big-book leaders, and Three Chimneys hasn’t shuttled horses in the past. But the stallions you cite that have the lowest numbers are not limited as much by Three Chimneys, I think, as by the market demand. That’s why, for example, Albert the Great is no longer at Three Chimneys; he’s now standing at Pin Oak Lane in Pennsylvania.
Smarty Jones’s book was contractually limited, because the Chapmans wanted a limit, and Three Chimneys was happy to agree to it to get the horse and because it was in keeping with their general philosophy of not overdoing it with 150+ books. But books far below 100 mares anymore–say, 75 and under–generally are not a farm’s ideal (and I’m referrring to central Kentucky, big commercial breeding standards here) and usually a number like that is a result not of a farm-imposed limit but rather to lower market demand or fertility issues.
I can’t believe those feet won’t give some pause. If he does win the Belmont and we never see him run again, will he be a good gamble at a high stud fee? You will be spending nearly six figures and 11 months of an excellent mare’s production life. That baby better have feet as tough as Blundstones!
do you really think all quarter cracks are from genetics ??? come on people…
I think the feet are giving people some pause, but the pedigree seems to be giving as much or more pause. It will be interesting to see what his fee ultimately is and how commercial breeders, in particular, respond. I should think that IEAH, remaining majority owners in the horse, would be happy to get as many mares as they could to the horse, for profit’s sake. Winning the Triple Crown would sure help that cause!
But, as people have said earlier, a lot of breeders think the feet problems are often man-made, and others think an awful lot of Thoroughbreds have bad feet generally. In which case they might be not be inclined to consider the feet the most important issue in whether or not to breed to Big Brown.
Knowing the commercial breeders I know, if they think the horse will have sizzle in the auction ring and a halfway decent shot to get some runners, they’ll try to bring a mare to him that has decent feet herself. But the feet wouldn’t be a deal-breaker point for most of them. Pedigree, other points of conformation, and their assessment of his record would be. Quite a few breeders I know are skeptical of Dutrow and wonder if the horse is unnaturally aided, shall we say (the once-a-month steroids thing has put a few off, too), and in combination with the fact that this crop looks much less wonderful than last year’s three-year-olds, and then combined with the slowing economy, well, a lot of folks I know are thinking $100,000 is looking expensive for this horse, though some will surely take a shot to be first in the auction ring with the Big Browns! If he wins the Triple Crown, that’s a nice piece of advertising when that first crop hits the sale ring–and that prospect can offset a lot of doubts if you’re a commercial breeder.
[QUOTE=ArtilleryHill;3254332]
Quite a few breeders I know are skeptical of Dutrow and wonder if the horse is unnaturally aided, shall we say (the once-a-month steroids thing has put a few off, too.[/QUOTE]
OMG are you kidding me??? :eek:
The same folks that do surgeries on foals and weanlings to correct genetic problems have an issue with a low dose of a legal steroid??? So then surely they didn’t put any steroids in their Frakenbabies???
Sorry I am swimming in the waters of hypocritical confusion.
~Emily
Swim away! It’s true. Mind you, not all of the breeders in the Bluegrass use surgeries, but a number of them certainly do, including some of the high-end ones I know. But you’d still rather not pay for the surgeries if you can get a correct enough stallion and a correct enough mare to get a correct enough foal not to need the surgery! 'Course, figuring out which mares and which stallions didn’t have cosmetic surgeries as foals is getting a little tricky …
But, anyway, quite a few of the people I know don’t like the look of Big Brown at $100,000, if that’s the ultimate fee he has. Or, should I say, as of the week before the Belmont they don’t! Might change a week from now.
P.S.
That steroid is legal now–might not be next year (for racing or sales)!
dutrow is certainly getting blasted for his comment on winstrol…it is certainly used on more horses than we would like to admit…and by some trainers people look up to as saints…it is starting to be regulated and that is great…most breeders are not running away from bb because of steroid use or because of feet problems…if he wins the tc he will be the new golden child for three to four years,then his pedigree will kick in…his sale average will drop along with stud fee…then he will be like the majority of stallions standing…breed a few mares or become a very costly teaser for some young upcoming new stallion prospect…but until that happens why don’t we enjoy watching bb kick but and win the tc !!!
I could send my lovely Arab mare with great feet just to keep him company in his old age when all he gets to do is tease for newbie latest greatest…:winkgrin: oh crap, she’ll probably be too old by then. :lol::lol::lol:
I claimed a filly off of Dutrow…she also had crappy feet. Popped two abcesses within the first 2 months. She won some races for us, and has been on our farm producing babies for the past 4 years…no new foot problems, and babies seem to have nice feet.
Maybe it’s his training practices, track surface, nutrition, who knows?
Or…maybe it’s just the individual horse dealing with tough training, track surfaces, etc. After 25 yrs in the racing business, this is what I tend to believe.
[QUOTE=EventerAJ;3253959]
I had an interesting chat with some farriers yesterday. They work on all sorts of horses, from sales yearlings to broodmares to sport/racehorses. They agreed that MOST of the typical “bad TB feet” we all complain about are MAN-MADE problems.
It starts with the sales, they said. Sales agents and buyers want “pretty feet,” and almost all of the yearlings wear shoes. Sometimes the wall gets rasped way too much, just to have that clean, compact look to the foot. So the horses’ feet take some abuse as yearlings… then come the 2y/o sales. Pounding pounding on those small, thin feet… once again over-rasped to “look pretty” for the buyers during the sale. By the time a horse survives the 2 y/o sale, his feet are weaker. Add in more rigorous training, and the stress of galloping which pulls shoes out to the toe… and you get bad feet that are very difficult to recover.
This was how the farriers described it… quite the eye-opener for me.[/QUOTE]
Ditto!
TB’s bad feet aren’t entirely man made. Flat feet that are prone to bruising, thin shelly walls – these feet can be improved and maintained with good nutrition, management, and farrier work and are a disaster with bad farrier work, but they are a factor in the first place. Not all TBs have bad feet of course but they do tend to have flat feet and grow a long toe and low heel.
[QUOTE=LaurieB;3253703]
Now he has a quarter crack. I guess he’s the only horse to ever have that happen too.
I honestly don’t understand why there’s so much talk about BB bad feet except that it gives the media something to talk about and gives non-horse people an angle they think they can understand.[/QUOTE]
Uhh, the horse now has THREE quarter cracks. He had one in each front going into the KD (that’s 2) and just popped another this week (that’s 3). Everyone raise their hands who is competing a horse with three quarter cracks. Must be media thing to fire up the ignorant public for no reason. Durn media! :rolleyes:
wow. Really?
[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;3254128]
How in the world is it possible to determine his ‘rideability’ as a 3 year old colt that’s a race horse? :lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]
This is quite possibly the stupidest thing I’ve read on this BB in awhile. Are you suggesting that jockeys are not actually “riding” so one is unable to determine rideability or are you suggesting that as a three year old they are too young to make this assessment? Either way you sound like an idiot. I don’t think the OP is suggesting that you could hop on the horse and ride him around a hunter course, I think she’s just saying that as a three year old he’s rideable and has a great temperment. Am I missing something here?
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;3254746]
Uhh, the horse now has THREE quarter cracks. He had one in each front going into the KD (that’s 2) and just popped another this week (that’s 3). [/QUOTE]
I believe that is incorrect. I believe that what the media was reporting as two “quarter cracks”, one in each foot, going into the Derby was in fact two wall separations, one in each foot, that resulted from the abscesses he had. Now he has one quarter crack. The difference between a wall separation and a quarter crack is that the former starts from the bottom and moves up towards the coronary band. A quarter crack starts at the coronary band and moves down. And, in BB’s case, the wall separations were part and parcel of the abscesses.
I wouldn’t dream of breeding to a horse with feet that bad.
Are there REALLY people posting here on this message board who can look themselves in the mirror and say that they own a horse who has never been beaten, who has easily won the first two legs of the triple crown and is considered a lock to win the Belmont. But you will not take the 50 million and stand him at stud because you can’t bear the thought of some poor bastard having to go through the hell that you are going through now. The hell of watching your horse suffer through glue on shoes and quarter crack patches. The horror you wouldn’t wish on any horse.
Give me a freaking break. This is one of the soundest triple crown horses in decades. We only know about the problems he does have because his trainer couldn’t shut the hell up if you used a tongue tie and a figure eight on him. Good thing Lukas could keep his mouth shut, that would have kept half the country awake a night.
[QUOTE=Nin;3255015]
I wouldn’t dream of breeding to a horse with feet that bad.[/QUOTE]
Assuming you are, in fact, a breeder … how do you know how “bad” or “good” the hooves of the stallions you choose for your mares are? If you are a warmblood breeder, you certainly don’t know.
IF you happen to be a warmblood breeder, warmblood stallions are never asked to do anything anywhere near as hard as a TB racing at classic distances so their feet are not stressed as young TB’s feet are. Furthermore, without a talkative trainer & the press recording every word, you have no source of information about warmblood stallion feet. There are certainly warmblood stallions with BAD feet, worse problems than Big Brown. Go to shows & take a look at the feet. Always interesting. (Maybe you do this. Most mare owners do not live close to the stallions &, thus, do not generally see the feet of the stallion.)
If you are a TB breeder, maybe you have more room to talk & maybe not. I don’t know you (obviously). Again, talkative trainer combined with the press results in information being given out that is not being (or hasn’t been in the past) given out regarding other runners.
Edited to add: I am not joking about WB feet. I have first hand knowledge of the foot problems of several WB stallions. In one case, we have a mare with bad foot problems & I ran into the owner of a popular stallion at the vet clinic, was introduced to her & learned about her stallion’s problems. H-m-m-m. If you ask about his feet, what do you think you are going to be told?
I would have tos ay, after 35+ years of horse ownership (and I am talking about over 100 horses as well as boarders), MOST feet issues are manmade. THink long and hard about race horses. They get NO turnout while at the track (or very limited at best), they basically stand in dry straw for nearly 24 hours, they are quite literally “pounded on” when worked ont he track, they are freshly shod for nearly every race, etc. All of these things produce issues with feet, when youa re talking about a horse weighing well over 1000 pounds running at full speed, the forces are TREMENDOUS! Most of the people on this board have NEVER EVER subjected their hroses to these types of conditions. SO to discount this horse for breeding becuase of his feet is positively ridiculous. If one were to not breed hroses becuase of conformational issues, acquired unsoundness, feet problems etc. then there would BE no horses becuase the perfect one has yet to be made.
