Breeding Tall mare to small stallion (downsizing)

[ticofuzzy]

[QUOTE=VirginiaBred;8481764]
I need to use this post as an example of how many people need to go PAST the dam and sire to determine future height. I bang this drum all the time and this is a very, very common mistake made.[/QUOTE]

I was well aware of the heights of the horses in the pedigrees past the sire and dam. I did my research before breeding. All stallions in the pedigree of the resulting offspring (for 3 generations back) were between 16.1 and 16.3. Obviously, if you go back far enough in any warmblood’s pedigree, you will find extremes at either end of the spectrum. The point of my post was to let the OP know that it does not always work to breed a tall mare to a small stallion when trying to downsize. That does not mean that one should not try…

[DownYonder]

I think it is well understood amongst experienced breeders that to downsize a BIG WB mare, the breeder should be looking at purebred stallions from a smaller breed - in particular, Welsh Ponies and maybe even small Arabians.

However, this presents a challenge for breeders who want to register the foal with a WB registry. There aren’t many Arabian stallions approved for warmblood breeding - and some registries don’t accept them at all. And Welsh pony stallions are only approved for pony breeding - not for WB breeding.

IOW -if the breeder uses a purebred Arabian or Welsh stallion to get a better chance of downsizing, they may not be able to register the foal with their registry of choice. (And I am guessing that Eliza had considered that conundrum when she made her stallion choice.)

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8486582]
I think it is well understood amongst experienced breeders that to downsize a BIG WB mare, the breeder should be looking at purebred stallions from a smaller breed - in particular, Welsh Ponies and maybe even small Arabians.

However, this presents a challenge for breeders who want to register the foal with a WB registry. There aren’t many Arabian stallions approved for warmblood breeding - and some registries don’t accept them at all. And Welsh pony stallions are only approved for pony breeding - not for WB breeding.

IOW -if the breeder uses a purebred Arabian or Welsh stallion to get a better chance of downsizing, they may not be able to register the foal with their registry of choice. (And I am guessing that Eliza had considered that conundrum when she made her stallion choice.)[/QUOTE]

It also a problem if you want to produce a FEI quality offspring. She wanted to keep the talent. Ponies are super talented but your best chance lies in picking a quality stallion that matches her type and pedigree. I read (could be wrong) that the OP is also wanting a partner of the same quality of her mare.

[szipi]

Well, sometimes going larger is just not an option any more lol. Since my stallion, Lotus T is 17.2H and definitely throws size and substance, I ran I to the same problem when looking for stallions for his daughters. However when you breed horses that are so different in size and blood lines, the likelihood of getting the awkward end of the breeding gamble. I decided to purchase Caligula II, a Holsteiner Verband approved stallion, who is 16.1H and who’s pedigree is very compatible to the bloodlines of my Lotus T daughters. Caligula II is also a compact, powerful type stallion, as opposed to Lotus T’s tall, leggy, longer lines!

[scheherazadetbmare]

[QUOTE=szipi;8486844]
Well, sometimes going larger is just not an option any more lol. Since my stallion, Lotus T is 17.2H and definitely throws size and substance, I ran I to the same problem when looking for stallions for his daughters. However when you breed horses that are so different in size and blood lines, the likelihood of getting the awkward end of the breeding gamble. I decided to purchase Caligula II, a Holsteiner Verband approved stallion, who is 16.1H and who’s pedigree is very compatible to the bloodlines of my Lotus T daughters. Caligula II is also a compact, powerful type stallion, as opposed to Lotus T’s tall, leggy, longer lines![/QUOTE]

Thanks for this information

[3rottenponies]

It is a fairly common type of cross, as stated before. I am thinking that it will continue to increase in popularity.

One of the young horses I am riding is a Welsh(section b) Hanoverian cross. His sire was 12.3, dam 15.3(by a Grande son out of a Pik Bube daughter.). He sticks at 14h and is truly a little Maserati. I am excited to see what he himself throws…the 3 mares he has been crossed on this year are a 17.3 appendix, 14.1 purebred Arab, and a 14.3 cob mare.

[Majestic_Gaits]

KWPN does give a height statistic on their stallions that is helpful. I agree with others, that I’d make this not the main point of selecting a stallion, but one of the points. Look for a stallion that complements your mare so that you get what you want out of it. If you just want guaranteed height, better to buy a smaller horse unfortunately as breeding is not guaranteed anything. You can see stamping in stallions and that is your best guess. Lots of good smaller producing stallions out there.

Kathy

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;8486582]
I think it is well understood amongst experienced breeders that to downsize a BIG WB mare, the breeder should be looking at purebred stallions from a smaller breed - in particular, Welsh Ponies and maybe even small Arabians.

However, this presents a challenge for breeders who want to register the foal with a WB registry. There aren’t many Arabian stallions approved for warmblood breeding - and some registries don’t accept them at all. And Welsh pony stallions are only approved for pony breeding - not for WB breeding.[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to add that, although breeding to purebred pony stallions will not get a foal pink warmblood papers, pony stallions approved with the major warmblood registries will still allow the foals to be registered with the warmblood registries. Both of our Welsh pony stallions are approved RPSI, German Westphalian Verband, ISR/Oldenburg and one of the stallions also approved with Oldenburg GOV. The resulting foals out of warmblood mares get placed in their German Riding Pony/Sport Pony stud books and are still eligible for pink papers and branding/microchipping.

[Samotis]

[QUOTE=3rottenponies;8676835]
It is a fairly common type of cross, as stated before. I am thinking that it will continue to increase in popularity.

One of the young horses I am riding is a Welsh(section b) Hanoverian cross. His sire was 12.3, dam 15.3(by a Grande son out of a Pik Bube daughter.). He sticks at 14h and is truly a little Maserati. I am excited to see what he himself throws…the 3 mares he has been crossed on this year are a 17.3 appendix, 14.1 purebred Arab, and a 14.3 cob mare.[/QUOTE]

I bred my 15.3 hand tb mare to a 11 hand Sec A welsh pony and the baby is now almost 14 hands!! ( he is 3 this year and I don’t think he will grow anymore)
I am repeating the cross this year because I love the baby so much and also because I am curious what size I will get. I have had a lot of people say they had full crosses come out to be all different sizes. So I could get a bit bigger, but ideally would like a bit smaller for a top,of the line medium.

I am still looking for a GRP or bigger welsh to possibly breed her to next year and get a 15-16 hand horse for myself.

If I could get a 15.3 hand version of my 3 year old welsh I would be in heaven!!!

[invinoveritas]

It is so much better to do this the way you plan to than to breed a small mare to a big stallion.

Carol Lush, may she rest in peace, did this so well in PA with her pony stallion.

[Tory]

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8476467]
A maiden mare often throws small, or not, if that helps :)[/QUOTE]

Not always
My 14.3 H maiden mare was bred to a 16.1H stallion. Her filly at 10 months is almost her size (just under 14H). I am hoping the filly will mature to about 16H, most of the stallions lineage is around that height.

But since she’s a keeper, I guess I get what I get :yes: