Briar and Don Schufro ? Solid rides.. low scores?

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=slc2;3453816]
No one said you were peons or idiots. Check back. You chose to take it that way, it was never stated as that. It’s a way of discounting what someone says, by twisting what they say to devalue it.

I don’t understand how to use a Fourrier Transform to make a optic, either. I’m not real upset about it. But I also don’t sit there and complain about how my friend uses Fourrier transforms, you get my meaning?

I said that alot of people don’t understand how a dressage test is to be judged. That’s why they’re always furious after every Olympics, and complain bitterly that they are judged so badly.

Keep in mind, if one sits there and bitches constantly about how bad the judges are, eventually you’re going to hear some disagreement. There will always be enough disenfranchised, competition-shy people who will agree with you that judges suck, how does that exactly surprise you.[/QUOTE]

SLC, my problem with what you said is that I felt you were attributing points of view to me that I do not have, and making assumptions about me that are untrue. Now, perhaps I misunderstood and your posts were not intended to include me at all.

[slc2]

Well, you can do what alot of people do, and include yourself so that you can get mad and have something angry to say. Then I can say I didn’t mean you, and you can do an Emily Latella.

My comment means I see a GENERAL lack of understanding of dressage judging, and a general excess of judging of dressage judging, without a general knowledge of dressage judging. There is also the little intimation in there that I’m sort of tired (as usual) of hearing how corrupt and stupid the top dressage judges in the world are.

I know a few dressage judges. They are about the most rigidly principled people I know. I would rather do ANYTHING in the universe than try to convince one of them to drop their principles.

I’m sure some do, and I’m sure there are problems in judging and with individuals. And as a whole, I still say, they are very well trained, far better than any of us, that most of them have extensive experience riding, competing, training, teaching and judging, and I would also say, the majority of them aren’t in it for the incredibly huge financial awards, the public accolades, or the fan clubs. They do it because they WANT to, because they think it’s important, because they think it needs to be done and done well.

Last time, I had to listen to chest beating and wails of ‘We Was Robbed’ about Brentina, a horse that I absolutely love, but one with whom I think our biggest problem is looking at her with rose colored glasses. It was nauseating at the last Olympics, and it’s nauseating at this one, too.

I love what the owners have done for Dressage in America, I am in awe of how well Debbie rides, and what a NICE horse Brentina was. But come on.

“two solid, exceedingly obedient horses. They each were correct, tried very hard”

I don’t know where you get that Don Schufro was ‘trying hard’, or how you evaluate that ANY horse is ‘trying hard’ vs getting the hair rode off his back.

“two solid, exceedingly obedient horses. They each were correct, tried very hard”

The fact remains, that alone doesn’t win big classes. It’s not enough to be obedient and correct. Once again, this is not western pleasure, where the horse that is the most ‘consistent’ (keeps his head down, goes slow, and does what he’s told) wins.

Don Schufro looked very flat and lacking in impulsion compared to what he usually does. He is capable of much more expression, range of motion, impulsion, engagement, collection. He is an incredible horse.

To WIN, the horse and rider need to TAKE RISKS.

What does ‘Taking Risks’ mean?

It means asking for more impulsion, more suppleness, more throughness, quicker reactions, which allows you tighter pirouettes, more on-the-spot piaffe, more suspension in passage, more accuracy, more expression in changes, more reach in extended gaits, more range of motion, more well marked out transitions, etc.

I’ve ridden in many classes where I had an obedient correct ride. Guess what? It isn’t enough. At any level. Not if anyone else shows up.

[egontoast]

I haven’t read everything because we are haying today and tomorrow so I will likely miss the freestyles ( SIGH) :( too but I digress,

What exactly do people here NOT like about isabel/ Satchmo? Other than the one movement with the problem in the GPS , please tell me what is wrong with the rest? Honestly, I doubt even Klimke would have a lot bad to say about Isabel and Satchmo in the GPS. I did not see the GP so can’t comment on that.

Is she just criticized on principle because she is successful or is there some substance to it?

[pintopiaffe]

oh, man, I LOVED him. He’s very neat. He’s not ‘my’ type, but I still hugely appreciate his talent.

And I have always loved Isabelle.

Heck, I think Anky is amazing too, and Salinero was always really correct and I never saw him BTV or anything like that. A hot ride but wonderful.

I am only saying that I don’t get the BIG discrepancies based (I guess) on type of gait?

I for one, am not complaining OR frustrated by the judging, just somewhat baffled at times.

When people explain to me why the scores differ, it helps me learn (as Eggy did at the top of the thread.)

[slc2]

I don’t think the big discrepancies are based on type of gait at all. Unless lack of engagement and activity is a type of gait. I think it’s a technical point only. On other days the horses mentioned would have much more engagement and activity.

I think everything adds up to make the score. It is about fluidity, rhythm, engagement, collection, transitions, technical points in each movement (size of pirouette, amount of reach in extension, etc), accuracy, general impressions like noting tightness or restriction of muscles, throughness, etc.

I think the things that bother people most are the same things that bother then when they watch local shows:

1. An obedient, quiet test is not necessarily the best test in the class

2. They have a ‘pet peeve’ and if they see that ‘pet peeve’ happening, they think the horse should be penalized much more than it is penalized

[Equa]

I saw all these horses live in HK in the GP (only saw the Special on my laptop, via Danish TV).

slc is right about fluidity, risk-taking etc. It is easier to see live. Satchmo and Salinero were above and beyond the rest. Possibly even a little underscored. A couple of the other Dutch and German horses were probably scored too high.

Re the OP’s observation about Don Schiufro and Briar - they were both a bit flat, which affects all the transitions. It is NOT about Salinero and Satchmo having “flashier” gaits. There were plenty more horses with fancier, bigger movement (the Austrian horse, for one) who lacked balance and fluidity.

And I do agree that the stallions looked to be doing it tougher. Maybe that’s why a couple (including Quando Quando) did not really want to play.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Equa;3454931]
I saw all these horses live in HK in the GP (only saw the Special on my laptop, via Danish TV).

slc is right about fluidity, risk-taking etc. It is easier to see live. .[/QUOTE]

That is a really good point. I was commenting to my friend yesterday that I wondered how many people are only seeing the replays via internet, as I am finding that although I have a brand new and powerful computer, the connection has not been ideal and sometimes it appears as though the video feed is distorted (e.g., a touch herky jerky at times). Even watching on TV looked smoother to me.

[dressagetraks]

Fluidity is exactly what I loved about watching Satchmo. And risk-taking on IW’s part, too. But such an overall fluid and truly engaged test still with distinctions between the movements, extensions and collections with a clear difference. I thought it was far superior to the others I’ve seen (haven’t seen all yet). And I get the feeling that he has more, too, that Isabell still hasn’t called on yet. Hopefully we will see it tomorrow.

Of course, I know Anky has more, too. I don’t think she’s hit anywhere near her full capacity so far this Olympics. JMHO. Should be interesting tomorrow.

I haven’t seen the two rides the OP mentioned yet, but this thread reminds me of something my trainer said once, when I was riding a test in a lesson before an upcoming show. I finished, and she said, “Not bad. 6s on most.” I had really thought it was pretty good, and I said, “Only 6s?” She said, “You get 6s for safe but pretty good. If you want more than that, take a risk and prove to the judge that you want it.”

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=dressagetraks;3455157]

I haven’t seen the two rides the OP mentioned yet, but this thread reminds me of something my trainer said once, when I was riding a test in a lesson before an upcoming show. I finished, and she said, “Not bad. 6s on most.” I had really thought it was pretty good, and I said, “Only 6s?” She said, “You get 6s for safe but pretty good. If you want more than that, take a risk and prove to the judge that you want it.”[/QUOTE]

I really don’t believe that the Olympic rides under discussion are at all analogous to what you describe.