Part of the airvest (Point Two especially) is due to very aggressive marketing and a lot of BNR endorsements early on; I don’t know that it was so much about riders liking the vests as everyone seeing upper level riders raving about how safe they felt in them and being able to get them in cool colors.
EXO might have had the superior technology, but it was too much engineering, too little comfort/ease/cool factor.
As you’ve brought this up twice now, I’m really curious where you think I’ve said that eventers ‘don’t care about safety’.
I don’t see where I’ve said that in my posts and it’s not something I believe.
I believe that eventers do care about safety but that there are limits as to what they will adopt or do consistently to make themselves safer in the sport.
I recall a time when it was a struggle to convince some that every-time-every-ride helmets were a good idea. The pages of COTH raged with the debate. Now it’s a settled argument, no one is claiming that your head is safer in an unattached Patey (and really, eminent riding folk were given column space to spout this idiocy). So our perception of risk and the implementation of solutions for those perceived risks does change over time.
It’s all a question of freedom to choose being crushed by a rotating horse and fit and comfort.
The helmet debate was and is exactly the same except that looks play a huge part.
Except that helmet manufacturers continue to improve the technology and make helmets safer and more comfortable for a greater variety of skull shapes/sizes. Why is it the consumers’ fault that they didn’t buy something that wasn’t going to fit or was going to cause discomfort while riding? I don’t really understand some of the attitude here about the EXO. Yes, it’s great, but we can’t go out and buy it right now. Maybe there should be energy toward leasing the patent/getting companies like Charles Owen et al to produce it instead of chastising people on a forum for not buying something that isn’t available anymore, and just wouldn’t fit half the population even if it were.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/…-future-267628
I think the comments from the creators are pretty telling; they wanted BE, etc. to mandate them and do all the sales work for them. I’m not sure why they thought a governing body would be able to mandate a single brand product and not be met with pushback/concerns from members. They sound like engineers who really needed a marketing team.
EDIT: I read an old post where the CEO defends the company as being purely R&D, so I guess Woof gets the blame? I do think accompany most known for horse boots maybe wasn’t the right choice.
I don’t think EXO had the engineering, either–there’s a fairly narrow range of fitment, and if you’re outside of that (and the chest size range is 32-37" with one matching waist measurement per size) you’re out. I’m not sure how to make it work without either a huge investment in a bazillion different models or some way of efficiently building them to fit individuals, but we can’t ignore fit.
If they made one that fit me I’d try it for sure.
Likewise. I could not find a size that worked for me either.
Like PhoenixFarm I would love to have one even though I am a certified Wimpy Lower Level Eventer at best – But I couldn’t get the darn thing closed and still breathe. I’m not even that big of a person but I’m 5’10 with Cs and it wasn’t happening. I was really disappointed because I would love to support its use and I like being safe. I think Reed said once he had to modify his. I can weld but would feel uncomfortable making modifications to safety equipment myself since I am not a safety engineer.
They also seem to ride up weirdly on people that use them. I wish they’d revamp the cage a bit and reissue them. I’d buy one if it had any semblance of fitting. I don’t care if it is less comfortable, I would expect that of a rigid device, but I have to be able to breathe.
The big complaint in the UK about the EXO came down to one thing: the weight. It weighs about 8 pounds. UL riders claimed they’d be hurting their horses’ chances of high placings due to carrying the extra weight. There was one rider who accepted a sponsorship from EXO but would only wear the EXO on her young horses because with the extra weight on her UL horses, she just ‘couldn’t do that to her owners’.
Never mind that the combination weight of a conventional body protector plus an air vest comes out to be just slightly less than the EXO (a negligible difference). Never mind that there’s a lot you can do to reduce weight on the horse, including lightweight saddles (something I do for XC), losing a few pounds yourself, etc. I never heard any complaints that the weight was too much for the rider to carry, only about putting the weight on the horse.
(In case anyone is wondering, I talked to a lot of people connected with this product - developer, manufacturer’s rep, fitter, tack shops, etc. over several years.)
In the US, the complaints seemed to be all about fit, not weight.
My EXO fits very nicely. It’s quite comfortable. The shoulder outside pieces don’t ‘ride up’ so much as they’re not attached in such a way as to stay low on the shoulders. It’s not something I’ve noticed while wearing it. The cage hangs away from your body so you don’t notice it at all.
But then I’ve never been one to complain about the fit of safety equipment. I’ve never said ‘OMG I can’t breathe!’ in a conventional BP or ‘my head will get too hot if I wear a helmet!’ (people used to say that, on horses, bikes and even motorcycles!) or in any of the other sports I do in which lots of safety equipment is required. It’s part of the sport so you make sure the fit is correct and then you deal with it.
With most consumer products, a range adjusts fit/sizes for the market over time. For any number of reasons, EXO probably didn’t have time/money/data/sales to do that in their short lifespan. And unusual sizes are always going to be a problem in specialty-market sporting and/or safety equipment. If you have unusual dimensions or fitting requirements, you are going to have difficulty finding products that fit you. This doesn’t make a product a bad product, it just means it doesn’t fit you.
A little late to the party here, but to address the concerns that paramedics wouldn’t know how to take the vests off? Erroneous.
I’ve been safety coordinator for everything from unrecognized one days on up to the CIC3*, and I can tell you that the Safety Officer is with the paramedics at every single fall. It is the safety coordinators job to “coordinate” care, which also means knowing how our safety vests come off and educating/assisting the EMS crew as needed.
JER, you are also a tiny person. Trust me, I can’t get the damn thing to latch and I’m not exactly a fattie. I could lose a few pounds but I’m not grossly overweight.
I am not complaining I can’t breathe because I am a delicate snowflake, I am complaining that my boobs don’t fit in it. 37 inches is NOT a huge circumference for a female’s chest, especially a tall female. 36 is supposed to be the ideal. One inch more as the largest size available is pretty ungenerous sizing. I don’t think it is “unusual” to need a larger size than that.
ETA: here is a recent video. When I tried the EXO I weighed 15 pounds LESS (recent medical issue caused weight gain) and I couldn’t get it latched. I don’t think I am at all outside the range of normal for equestrians. https://www.facebook.com/sarah.pojanowski/videos/vb.1293847780/10214211244897095/?type=3
Equipment of all types, except for what is regulated, is a personal choice. Someone asked the riders why they wouldn’t wear them, and they answered honestly. As a business, it is not the job of EXO to tell them that their complaints are invalid and to hand over their money anyway - it is their job to adjust the product to capture that segment of the market, or to move on. I understand you would make a different choice personally, and that is fine, but other people are free to decide for themselves based on whatever factors are most important to them.
Is that an option? Is it legal to wear an EXO on it’s own, without any form of traditional body protector underneath?
My own thoughts:
I suspect based on reviews that it would not fit me, and as such my personal reasons for not looking into this further are that I am simply not willing to pay shipping on what sounds like an enormous, heavy package with a low probability of being of use. However, I wish there was one in a tack shop near me - seeing it in person to answer my questions would go a long way to making this a potentially viable option for me.
If “come on, just buy it, everyone says it’ll make you safer!” is not an acceptable reason to buy an air vest on COTH, it only stands to reason that “come on, just buy it, everyone says it’ll fit you and your paramedic will know how to evict you!” must also be questioned.
I don’t like being aggressively told to buy anything, and I feel that’s happening a bit here. I like being provided evidence (not just that it works, which has been done well here), but that it is within the rules where I compete, that my paramedics will know how to help me if I have an accident while wearing it, and that it will fit me in such a way that I can ride effectively and safely while wearing it. Then I will make my own decision, for me.
I don’t get why you’re addressing this to me. I’ve never said anything remotely close to saying that riders aren’t free to make their own choices. I did say that some EMS professionals that I know have seen the vest and wondered why it wasn’t mandated. I did not say that was my opinion.
I brought up the weight issue because I did quite a bit of talking to people in the industry and in BE about the EXO and that was the answer I got over and over again. Not fit. Weight. Given that this is a thread about the EXO, I thought USA-centric eventers might find it interesting.
That is how it’s worn. It is both a conventional BP and a cage.
But I’m not saying that. And you know what? Not even the manufacturer recommended it. Proper fitting by a trained fitter was advised. (There was one tack shop in the UK that had a rep for selling online very successfully to the US based on measurements.)
Wow. Cognitive dissonance much? No one is telling you to buy anything here. My point is that the EXO was the one device that could protect you against the massive crush injuries which are the #1 killer in falls on XC. And then that eventers did not embrace the EXO. Both of those things are true but no where in there are you being ‘aggressively told to buy’ anything.
You’re projecting quite a lot on to this discussion. But then maybe that’s not so surprising, given the insecurities inherent in eventing. It’s not a safe sport, we’re all wanting it to be safer, and perhaps it’s a good time to revisit the EXO and see if a truly safer option could be made available again.
I addressed my comments about the free choice of riders to you because, in the part I quoted above, you brought up the weight of the vest as a primary reason eventers stated that they would not choose to wear the EXO, and then proceeded to disparage their comments as silly given other ways you personally would choose to reduce the weight on your horse’s back.
Riders are free to make their own choice regarding this vest for any reason - weight, fit, heck, colour. I think colour would be pretty silly myself, and as I said above, I’d actually like to try one if I thought I had a chance of being the right shape. That said, I won’t comment on another rider’s decision to wear or not wear one for any reason. I understand that it is disappointing for you because the lack of pick-up by the market means it is very difficult to buy them now. My only point was that the manufacturer of the product is ultimately to blame for that, because they did not process feedback in a way that could make the product appeal to the market.
I apologize for misinterpreting you, and appreciate the clarification. From the way you have been arguing strenuously against the reasons people have given for not owning one, I assumed that you wanted every eventer to have an EXO, and that you did not see any drawbacks to the technology. I will freely admit that I found out about the vest because of your posts on these forums (years ago, not this thread), and I appreciate the knowledge. It seems like it is on the right track. I do occasionally feel that you do not respect the decision to ride without one, and as with any argument that discusses only the pros or cons of an issue, that makes me uncomfortable because I feel like you are presenting incomplete information.
I do appear to have projected things on to the discussion that you did not intend, and I apologize. I am not sure insecure is the right word for how I feel, but if what you mean is that I do not feel that my life is secure every time I leave the start box, you are absolutely right about that. I do want the sport to be safer, and my happiest fantasy would be for someone to hand me a thing, any thing, and say “if you wear this, you’ll be safe”. However, I also know that people dedicate themselves to “the new thing” fervently, and sometimes without thinking through the risks. It scares me that an air vest could deploy after a spinal injury has already occurred. It scares me that it could take a paramedic 30 seconds and an allen key to gain access to my torso. I don’t know if either of those fears have a material impact on my actual level of safety on course when wearing these devices. I don’t know if either of these technologies present pros that outweigh the cons. I want to know. I wish I knew. If that is the insecurity you are referring to, then heck yes that applies to me!
Thank you for the info, that’s interesting! I hadn’t realized that before. Despite our disagreements, thank you for taking the time to respond to each aspect of my post.
Yes, you did.
“The sad truth is that eventers resisted and unlitmately rejected a safety device that was truly a safety device. It seems to me like a lot of this chatter about it is really people trying to justify to themselves why they didn’t get one, as if trying to convince yourself that the EXO wasn’t a safer body protector is somehow going to make you feel better about a missed opportunity to be safer out there on XC.”
I think that people had many reasons for not getting an EXO and discounting all of those reasons doesn’t help sell a product. Cost, Fit, ease of use, color, weight, are all important considerations when designing something that people purchase voluntarily. It doesn’t really matter if it’s the safest thing on the market if it’s difficult to fit, and other riders have given their experiences with the vest in that area. Eventers ARE concerned about safety and many people have taken the time to list their concerns about the EXO vest and I don’t think brushing off those concerns is the way to go.
Duct Tape and spur straps! Seriously, that would be the only way I could wear one without having major breast reduction surgery. Last I checked breast reduction surgery for rider safety is not covered by insurance. Dang.
Interesting interpretation and not one I’d agree with.
I think I’ve clarified my statements enough times so there should be no ambiguity at this point. In fact, I’ve said straight up that I believe that eventers do care about safety.
Well I for one would love to try one. I dont know if it would fit my chest based on the conversation here.
I am wondering, in the Safety talk CoTH held they mentioned there is research going into helmets and vests. Would some of the money donated to these safety studies go to good use, if they were to research ways to modify the EXO, to make it lighter, better fit etc? Since it has proven to prevent crush injuries, I don’t see why this is not being investigated.
I would love to ride in the EXO if they were still available. Years ago when I was eventing at a higher level I looked into buying one but the rep said it wouldn’t fit around my chest, even with a tight sportsbra.
I just got back into eventing and needed to buy a new vest. It was a terrible experience. I felt like nothing fit well and if it was big enough it also hit the back of my saddle and pushed the vest up to hit the back of my helmet. I ended up getting one of the certified Tipps but I know it’s not as safe as I could be. I hate not having options but understand that a company can’t accommodate every body type.
A parallel from the world of motorsport…
(This has been said here before many times but I’m bringing it up again because it’s relevant to the arguments about the EXO. I fully expect that a number of people will respond that it’s (1) not relevant or (2) doesn’t address the fit issue or (3) other 'but…'s that illustrate my point better than I ever could.)
A HANS device is a rigid head and neck support (hence the acronym) that is used as a safety restraint in motorsport. It’s a rigid carbon-fiber collar-type thing that goes behind your head in the car. The purpose of the HANS is to protect a driver from a type of whiplash injury - basilar skull fracture - that was responsible for a number of deaths in racetrack crashes.
The HANS was developed in the 1980s. Quite early on, it was known that only a rigid device would protect from a basilar skull fracture, although other technologies like air bags were being designed and tested (IIRC this was unsuccessful).
Even though the test results were favorable, the HANS was not embraced by the motorsport community. Drivers hated it and spoke out against it. Drivers claimed it would make them less safe, that fit was an issue, it was uncomfortable, it would be more dangerous in a crash, that EMS wouldn’t free them from it, etc. No safety tech or motorsport company would manufacture or sell it. The inventors had to strike out on their own. Meanwhile, drivers were still dying from basilar skull fractures. Not in alarming numbers, but a death every now and then, as with eventing.
Then in 2001, Dale Earnhardt was killed at Daytona. Although while alive, he’d referred to the HANS as a ‘damn noose’, that same damn noose might have saved his life.
Over the next few years, the HANS (or another approved form of rigid head and neck restraint) became mandatory in most forms of motorsport racing. FIA, NASCAR, even monster trucks.
But this is how safety often works. There is risk and there is our perception of risk, and those two things don’t often act in concert. We draw our own lines for how far we’ll go to be safe.
For example, there are far too many people who don’t wear seatbelt in moving vehicles. This raises your risk of death in an MVA by quite a lot and accordingly, most jurisdictions have seatbelt laws but people still make their own choices, even when their choice is unequivocally a poor one. But these people have decided that seatbelt are a step too far for them.
The helmet situation has been much the same, except that now more rules are in place to ensure riders wear proven head protection. But as I mentioned previously, in the 1990s horse people were given column inches in COTH to spout nonsense like Pateys were safer, helmet harnesses were dangerous, and their heads got too hot in an approved helmet. Those arguments sound even stupider now but at the time, there was obviously something acceptable about them to the equestrian mainstream.
With body protectors, it seems that the EXO was a step too far for its time. Some people on here posting about the fit never actually tried the EXO. I understand someone like PhoenixFarm’s position - she wanted to try but wasn’t in the fitting range but she’s also very forthright in saying that her measurements are unusual. (I have that issue with my feet and know that very few manufacturers will ever make footwear that can contain my foot. I don’t rail against shoe companies, I just accept that not enough of the population has feet like mine.) I’ve had at least half a dozen people (of different body types) try on my EXO and I think all of them have fit into it, although some would have needed a different size. Not all of these people are built like me and my EXO is on the small-average side of sizing so I’m led to believe that the EXO would and did fit a reasonable cohort of the eventing population.
As riders, we deal with perceptions of risk and actual risk on a daily basis. Marigold hit the nail on the head when she referred to the insecurity of the start box, which is exactly what I meant. Accidents are a great equalizer - a rotational fall doesn’t care who you are. That is a reality we all have to face.
But in our daily riding and horsecars, we all have our own guidelines for safety. Things like riding alone. Jumping alone. On which rides you’ll add your body protector. Clipping a horse alone in the barn. There are risks inherent in just about anything you can do with a horse and we all, consciously or not, have our own risk management guidelines. Which means there’s a point where we’d see ourselves crossing over into too many or unnecessary precautions. Based on experience and information (of varying quality) those individual rules will change over time. For example, I went for about 15 years riding every single ride with a body protector but now don’t wear one on my older horses unless I’m hacking out or jumping. But that was my own internal rule, based on my life and work pressures as I could not afford any downtime at all.
So with the EXO, I see the same initial pattern of resistance to a true safety technology, followed by more accidents in which the EXO could have been a mitigating factor, followed by renewed interest in the EXO, which will hopefully be followed by a new and more accessible version of the only body protector to date that could protect your chest from massive crush injuries and blunt force trauma.
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