She was doing it before and after shoeing unfortunately.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
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Forgive me if I missed it, but have you done a bute or equioxx trial on her for a week to see if she still bucks on the lunge?
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So silly idea hereâŠbut it has helped me identify holes in my horseâs training and my riding. What about a back-to-work conditioning regime? 30 or 60 days.
Due to my career my horse is off from January to April 15th. I then start him on a conditioning program (Iâve got it to about 30 days) that builds in the expectation slowly. Iâve based this on pony club, other resources, vet feedback, etc. I (dressage rider by nature) donât expect anything other than active work and to not be a giraffe. Hunter frame, dressage training level connectionâŠdoesnât matter. Wherever he seems happy and not a loon. By the time we are up to 45 min of active walking he seems to be like âcan we just trot now?!â
The first day is 15 minutes of active walking. That is an easy win to build confidence in YOU and your horse.
From there my schedule builds up to 45 min active walking before we start trot sets. 10 minutes active walk, 5-one minute trot sets, 1 minute walk in between and 10 minutes âcool downâ.
Then my schedules keeps our ride to about 45-50 minutes, incorporating longer trot sets, canter sets, etc. It is nebulous so I might work on some leg yielding at the walk if bored or tossing in some trot lengthenings in a 3 min trot set. We might try and do some more collected workâŠjust to check inâŠbut I really use this time to tune in to his response: did he seem winded? was he cranky or happy to do more? am I breathing-relaxed-even?
Couple reasons I think this may help:
- Lowers the daily expectations to get you easy wins (confidence)
- Gives Maresy easy wins too (confidence for her)
- Allows (well for me) to slow down and identify holes. Example: my horse has shit down transistions unless he has walked and trotted for 20 minutes. Iâve found that he needs to get GOING before I can expect clean and through down transitions.
- Allows you to dial in on triggers. For example (from above): working on proper transitions frustrate her. Can we work transition work into other work (trail, latereral work) or wow she hates to leg yield left and that kinda makes everything worse.
Just an idea from restarting my sensitive Ponysaurus year after year
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Agree with Bugs above.
Concentrate on the Navicular
Pain.
If sheâs hurting in both front feet, she may not appear lame.
Doing the bucking on the lunge
Tells a lot.
She may need special shoes for navicular- bar shoes, pads, etc.
She may need something for ongoing bone/joint pain.
âNo Foot, No Horseâ.
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Iâll third what Bugs above posted about the navicular. Might need to play with shoeing to get her comfortable. Sometimes having a shoe nailed on is just too much and they need glue-ons. Nail pressure and navicular horses is a thing.
Try a bute trial to see if it helps.
When the feet or body hurt, the amount of rabbits they can handle gets shorter and shorter.
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SoâŠthis isnât something that popped up out of the blue five weeks in? Sheâs been ânaughtyâ from the start?
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Yeah, just trying to understand the timeline. Because in your first post, you said:
And
But that doesnât really line up to
So sheâs been ânaughtyâ from the beginning? What exactly does ânaughtyâ look like.
âNaughtyâ may very well be your precursor and warning before bucking. Sheâs ânaughty,â you ignore/push her through, and she ramps up to bucking because she feels like youâre not listening to whatever sheâs trying to tell you by being ânaughty.â
When we ignore our horses telling us no, they very often just say no louder, in a way thatâs harder to ignore.
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You said that she was naughty when you purchased her:
If she was ânaughty then tooââŠwhen you purchased herâŠitâs just hard to understand why youâre surprised sheâs continued to be naughty since you purchased her?
It just doesnât sound like this behavior was ever absent, if she was naughty when you purchased, too?
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Do the semantics matter? The horse has a behavior that is not desirable by her owner.
Iâd re-run back rads, do a bute trial, and if those fail⊠then turn out, turn out, turn out. It sounds like you have your own place so this is a viable option. Give her letdown from the last stressful place and then start from basics.
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I apologize I should have been more clear.
I meant she had exhibited the behaviors in the past.
I am more surprised that things were going so well before. I was starting to get hopeful we were making good progress.
And Iâm surprised that her bronc (airs above the ground, bucking and rearing combined?) was so extreme
She may also need foot rehab if there really is remodeling in both naviculars, that isnât super quick but it is very successful with the right people (trimmer or shoer) involved in my experience. The right people being really hard to find unfortunately and typically not someone who builds a big elaborate bar shoe for every problem.
Definitely watch the TRT videos, itâs enlightening watching him point out the precursors the riders missed. Heâs based in germany and works with WBs and competition riders so itâs easier to relate to than the western type videos.
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Check out Warwick Schiller.
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I will say that everything about this - but particularly the fact that this behavior seemingly came out of nowhere (when the previous owners purchased the horse) and so violently
does seem to indicate a physical issue. I am absolutely not the kind of person to say all bad behavior must be pain - but most horses donât just decide to become broncs overnight.
With that being said - I knowingly purchased and (mostly) successfully managed a pretty severe behavioral bucker, so I will share some things I learned and a few words of caution.
For me it was all about knowing his thresholds and managing them appropriately. He was a ranch horse and I was in a unique position to be riding him for 4-8 hours a day, so I really got to know him and all of his quirks. I learned (many) lessons on finding the balance of pushing them and picking fights you canât win.
His attitude under saddle was also VERY influenced by his overall happiness in his environment / life. If he wasnât happy with some change in his routine, you would know it.
Now for the words of caution:
- I rode him for ~5 years and he got to a point where he was good 95% of the time. He was never unpredictable, and I knew exactly where his line was to cross into the 5%. I trusted him 100%, and we did some sketchy things together (all in the mountains, alone, with no cell service). But - that made him basically impossible to ethically sell as a riding horse, because he would be SO good right up until he wasnât.
I actually trusted him 100% with beginners (my husband got on him for his first time sitting on a horse ever and walk/trot/loped), because I knew they wouldnât push his thresholds. But EVERY single time (it was so predictable it was almost funny) I tried to have someone more advanced ride him it was the same story - I would tell them NOT to do âxyzâ - they would get on, he would be perfect, they thought I was dramatic and pushed the envelope and got bucked off.
- I know people use the term âcowboy trainerâ to mean a lot of different things, but while sending the horse to a different style of trainer is not the worst idea - especially if you are at a point where you are dreading riding it, I would definitely advise doing research and finding someone patient and with experience with problem horses. While âcowboyingâ can certainly work on some horses, it can cause others to shut down even further and can make a difficult but predictable horse become truly dangerous.
I have a soft spot for the difficult ones (aka thatâs all I could ever afford 
). In my experience, they really require that you build a partnership and mutual respect which can be very rewarding. Every so often we would go have to catch our ranch horses out in the herd on 100+ acresâŠwhile every one else would be chasing there horses around with the UTV for an hour, my guy would trot up to me as soon as he saw me. My current very quirky, difficult guy comes FLYING when I call him in every night.
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Iâm invested in Velvet for some reason, LOL, so Iâve gone back and re-read most of this thread.
Because of my experience with my own horse and ulcers, Iâm still thinking this would be a place to focus. Has she had Ulcergard? I know you said she scoped clean, but when was that? And, TBH, I never had my gelding scoped, just started treating him with full tubes of Ulcergard when his behavior became so uncharacteristic and distressing that I had to do something. He literally started improving after that first tube. 30 days later, I had my horse back. During his âulcer period,â he developed a bucking habit. I broke this horse. He NEVER bucked. EVER. He was 10 years old before he EVER bucked under saddle, and it was due to pain. The ulcers were a by-product of several things stacking up against him: death of long-time buddies, moving from his long-time home to a new place, being ridden regularly again after literally years of basically being a pasture pet, change in feed and routine, and turn-out with non-compatible horses. He was good when we first arrived at the new barn, but over the course of a few months, he started to have more and more issues. Itâs a long saga, so Iâll skip the details. We moved again to another barn that suited him better and his behavior improved but bucking was still in the picture. Luckily, heâs not the most athletic and isnât very dedicated to the idea of bucking me off, but the fact that he was doing it at all was significant. It was during this time that we discovered hock arthritis developing. Adequan and Equioxx became part of his life. Equioxx actually was a blessing for the hocks, but seemed to exacerbate his ulcery behavior. (Keep in mind, I STILL hadnât treated his ulcersâŠamazing how hard-headed I was regarding that). His final move to his now (and hopefully forever) barn brought out the worst in him yet. He was absolutely nuts. I finally relented and got the Ulcergard. The rest is history. He has bucked exactly one time since finishing the ulcer treatment and it was a day he felt a little stiff/sore and I tried to push him to âwork out of it.â He surprised my friend who was riding with me. âI didnât know heâd bronc like that,â she said afterward. My answer was simple. âHe hurts.â
All of this to say, if Velvetâs original owners are surprised to hear of her behavior, I think there has to be something that has happened and/or is still happening within her that needs to be uncovered. I was surprised at my OWN horseâs behavior. He wasnât the same horse when he was in pain. He too was buddy sour (awful) during the worst of it.
You may have already tried the Ulcergard approach, I donât know. I didnât see it when looking back through the thread. I saw that you treated for hindgut âjust cuzâ. Iâd be doing the same for gastric. I know the scan says one thing, but itâs possible the scan missed something. Even if she was clean when scanned, she may not be now.
AlsoâŠhow old is she? I donât think I saw that anywhere.
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Have you had a chiropractor look at her?
And, if youâre doing further rads, have her neck looked at. My mare, when her head is in a certain position while riding, has a violent jerk/head shaking reaction almost like she got âstungâ by something - and her go-to is to rear. Perhaps maybe yours has something similar going on and her reaction is bucking? IDK, just thinking.
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No, but itâs a good idea to add to my list.
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I believe this is the OP saying that the horse was naughty for the previous owner that they bought the horse from, not that the horse was naughty for this person (the OP of this thread).
In other words, the bronc thing did not just start after the OP purchased the horse, it was there with the owner before, but when the OP did their test rides, the bronc thing did not show its ugly side.
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SoâŠ. here is another idea to think about. Many posters have had great suggestions to try and several people have said the same things.
We have one who lives w us who is retired. Sheâs a nice horseâŠbut will charge people or other horses occasionally and unpredictably. We put her on daily trazodone⊠better, SAFER living through chemistry. If you feel that unsafe around her, maybe this would work until you sort her out. Itâs life changing for this horseâŠwho couldnât go in a field by herself.
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Oooh, as a mom who has an almost-5 year old myself, my suggestion changes from âhereâs some ideas on how to figure this all outâ to âmove on from this horse ASAP to keep yourself safe and happyâ. However that may look.
Your safety is paramount, and extra-so with a little one to care for at home. Riding is supposed to be fun and not only does it sound like you really arenât having fun, you are feeling that your safety is at risk.
There is NO shame in closing the book on this one and finding yourself something safe and fun; I know you spent a lot of money on this horse, so the investment probably has a strong call on you, but sometimes itâs best to just walk away and start fresh.
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Oh myâŠ. If itâs pain related somehow, the pain must be significant. I know Trazadone isnât a pain reliever, butâŠ
We did have one that never buckedâŠand then he did. He would buck until he got his owner offâŠand she rode well. For him, it was the beginning of DSLD.
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