Buck Clinic - Really disappointed

[anon68314200]

@Old_Mac_Donald

There is something about the Dunning-Kruger effect for horse owners that makes people bring green/unsuitable horses to clinics and shows (Buck wrote that it’s not the first time; he tells a story of a lady bringing an unstarted filly to a class where she had little to no riding experience nor balance and he tried to do the best he could by both horse and rider to get them started on a safer path)

I’ve had it happen a few times and in my experience it was a case of the person really not having any idea that the event was going to be way more than they could handle. They didn’t have a lot of experience training or help and they lept at an opportunity. They didn’t realize how ill prepared they were how unprepared their horse was, how little they knew, etc.

There are a lot of folks tootling around alone Who figure maybe they’ll go to one of these clinic things and get a lesson. They manage to show up at the farm every day tack up ride and not die, so obviously somethings working (well enough.). But they don’t have any idea of a difference between their ‘every day tack up and not die’ and what Will await them at a clinic experience

[OverandOnward]

@anon68314200

I’ve had it happen a few times and in my experience it was a case of the person really not having any idea that the event was going to be way more than they could handle.

Very different clinics, the usual thing for those of us who show/compete …

During the first day flat sessions the clinician assesses who will be jumping in each group level, and it may not be the one you signed up for! lol So I guess it’s universal that people don’t quite know what to expect re expectations for the levels.

[roseymare]

Classic signs of either an orphan or one who was sick as a baby and had to be treated aggressively medically. ( Not aggressive as in mean but as in an intensive medical regimen where colt was stalled for weeks and given multiple injections etc etc

[Jarpur]

I had one foal whose dame was aglactic when he was born. My veterinarian obtained colostrum from another one of her clients; I will always be grateful for that client’s generosity, which was possible due to the tragic loss of her mare’s foal. The vet had suggested freezing the colostrum, just in case it would be useful, and my foal was the beneficiary.

I fed the foal Foal-Lac multiple times daily until his mother’s milk came in. At first, I used bottles, then he graduated to buckets. I always fed while standing on the opposite side of the mare from where he was, offering the bottle or pail by extending it under the mare’s belly at the udder, as recommended by my veterinarian.

As far as the foal was concerned, mealtime only happened at his mother’s udder, even if not from a teat. When not feeding, he was kept turned out with his dam, along with another mare and foal, living life exactly as he would have if his mother had milk. When her milk came in, he switched right over to nursing mom, no effort required on our part.

He’s always been a sociable horse (just like his dam, granddam, grandsire, great-grandsire, uncles, cousins, and all other members of his extended family which I’ve owned or met – they’re known for stellar temperaments), but he didn’t grow up to be pushy, even though hand-fed during his early days.

[roseymare]

Mine was before the days of domperidone and known fescue toxicity. So there was no feeding until milk came in. She was housed with other horses which helped some and she was fed with the two mares around but she was still confused somewhat as to how to act around humans compared to other horses. I do believe that the newer formulations of milk replacer that are stable longer have overall helped the situation and now knowing what we know about fescue toxicity.

[OverandOnward]

@roseymare

Classic signs of either an orphan or one who was sick as a baby and had to be treated aggressively medically. ( Not aggressive as in mean but as in an intensive medical regimen where colt was stalled for weeks and given multiple injections etc etc

Thank you for this useful information.

His behavior gradually improves and he is more calm - most of the time, not all of the time. He’s smart and is clearly learning by experience with his current humans. But I think it is useful and important to know that he should never be expected to behave just like all of the others.

Even when more calm and paying attention, he frequently switches back to his old behavior in an eyeblink. My guess is that this may become less and less frequent, but it will always be there.

I have not shared these observations and thoughts with his owner, who has more total years around horses than I do, but mostly around well-socialized higher-level horses. She really does not compute differences like these and I don’t know if this kind of info would be welcome, or if she would even believe it.

I will look for a time of casual horse conversation to work it in as “something I read” along with what I’ve observed. She does know that he’s flaky, but doesn’t seem to think about it or be concerned. So this idea is better than my first impulse to say “hey hope your liability insurance is up to date” because the feeding and turnout is done by a random & ever-changing collection of horse-newbies who think they want the experience. They do not observe behavior well, and seem to have no common sense about being basically attentive and careful around all horses in a feeding situation. Some angel has been keeping all of their body parts intact while they are around the barn generally.

[Spudsmyguy]

Barney Ward once said to me that dressage was for people who can’t see a distance otherwise they would jump

[sascha]

@Jarpur

but he didn’t grow up to be pushy, even though hand-fed during his early days.

You got great advice from your vet about how to do it and you followed through. Kudos to you.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Spudsmyguy

Barney Ward once said to me that dressage was for people who can’t see a distance otherwise they would jump

As a dressage rider, I must say no lies detected BUT could respond showjumping’s for people who can’t sit the trot.

[B_and_B]

That is how it should be done!

[Jarpur]

@sascha

You got great advice from your vet about how to do it and you followed through. Kudos to you.

Thanks! I was very fortunate to have been given proper instructions. Having longer arms would have made it a little easier, lol.

Mama being as sweet-natured as the rest of her family helped a lot when I was stretched out in a somewhat vulnerable position, holding a bottle or a bucket underneath her belly all those times.

He was worth it.

[walktrot]

Buck used to come to a nearby farm in southern Maine every other year. It was around 20 years ago. There was one woman in our barn who went to audit every year. At the time no one knew who Buck Branaman was, and what the attraction was. As good a horseman as he was, he was not considered a very good clinician.

A bunch of us went to see the movie. It was pretty good because you got a good taste of him growing up. That seemed to be a turning point. He was much better at local events at Equine Affaire.
I still like John Lyons. Fortunately, I avoided the Parelli’s. John breaks everything into small steps
He still recommends creating a lesson plan. Clinics had plenty of participants. The BO and one of the boarders were invited to the ranch several times in part to do something with the cows. Cattle.

John never liked being in “natural horsemanship”. He started in clinics in 1980 which put him way ahead of “natural horsemanship.” It is called Conditioned Response Training. He has you create a lesson plan by breaking each exercise into small pieces. If something isn’t working you go back to a place where your horse was able and willing. Repetitions are important but you spread them out over several days. His website had a very active board that functioned as a discussion board.
You learned a lot. That’s where we found out that his training woks well with recalcitrant spouses. Start on page 1 and move on from there.

I remember the first session at Equine Affaire after he had his knees replaced. Said he was several inches taller. He was generous with his time when he was at the booth. A woman once asked him a question and he did 15 minutes in response. A few people took notes.

His (now Josh’s) certification program requires a significant investment in time and money. Several 2 -week sessions at the ranch in Colorado with your horse, I think the older trainers such as Buck and John have a more classical approach than most of the “natural” crowd. Ray Hunt and the Dorance brothers were still active.

[Spudsmyguy]

I attended a lesson with a friend who was working with a certified John Lyons trainer and I couldn’t believe what that trainer was having her do. She (friend) was on her horse and the trainer told her to wait for the horse to decide to move?! WTH? Horse moseyed over to the fence where he stood in a patch of sunshine and took a nap. She must have sat there for a good 15 minutes while the horse snoozed until the trainer finally told her to ask him to move. The trainer meanwhile was schooling her own horse at the same time and would throw out a comment in between canter circles on what they should work on next like do turns on the forehand facing each direction of the compass. No actual instruction took place. This after leaving friend’s barn at 6AM, drive 2 hours to trainer, watch trainer eat breakfast and talk non-stop, watch trainer groom to the nines her horse, watch her tack up her horse the whole time talking about nothing that was worthwhile or related to what they were going to do that day. Take the “lesson”, spend another 2 hours talking to her afterward while she wrote detailed “homework” assignments, and drive home after spending 30 minutes trying to convince horse to load. I think we finally pulled into her driveway at about 11 PM.

I’m not saying all JL trainers are like this but the friend and her friend that also went along got taken for a ride and don’t mean that literally.