Burghley

Yes a ‘normal’ show jump cannot be 1.20m x 2m in the rules that I’ve read. (Looking up FEI rules now, I just know USEF) ETA: In a csi1* the max width for a 1.20 class oxer is 1.70m. The max width for any oxer in all of show jumping is 2.0m as was used at the Maltings. Interestingly that width is reserved for CSI5*. I wouldn’t say that the 5* show jumpers and 5* are totally comparable since that’s just two different questions. Not a dig and not implying that eventers are incapable but I can’t imagine asking the participants of 1.20-1.30 rounds to jump not 1 but two 2m oxers on a related turn. Just would get the CD shot.

That said I’ve done one at home almost as wide, 6’ not the full 6’6" but my idiot brain thought it wasn’t that wide. It was easy for my horse but it didn’t look as imposing as the Maltings did. White BIG ASS rails are great rider frighteners. Look at Hickstead and some other international derbies with the single WHITE hanging rails.

Em

2 Likes

I agree, Burghley definitely had more falls than a typical old long format event. But it also had more falls than a typical modern format event, and I would guess that the overall trend really hasn’t changed all that much in either direction from then to now. But again, that’s only my impression and not supported by any data, so I’m open to correction if the data show otherwise!

3 Likes

I’ve managed to pull course designer, starters, rider fall, horse fall, retirements, and frangible penalties for almost all the 5 stars for the last 4 years if you (or anyone else) wants it. I’m about halfway through - 2016 Adelaide results are proving a challenge to find and I don’t have Pau yet.

8 Likes

yes please, if you cant post here, email me. My screen name @gmail.com :slight_smile:

I never made that claim about the falls on XC. I think on a course like Burghley, good jumpers were as victimized as the leg-hangers.

I was referring to a horse like the Opposition horse who gets stellar dressage scores and then barges around XC with no sense of self- or rider- preservation. Same would go for Jonty Evans’s horse who didn’t seem to think impulsion was a necessary element for jumping fences.

With dressage scores coming first and being on a scale in which you can always eek out a few more points (or fewer penalty points), the standout dressage horse is a very seductive thing in eventing, so much so that it can keep an unsuitable and unsafe horse in the sport.

5 Likes

More importantly the presence of these dressage teasers impacts the rest of the field as well. Because chances are one or more of them are going to get around clear at any given event. So to be competitive you have to beat them at the dressage. Which impacts horse selection for everyone. And impacts how much time spent drilling to dressage for everyone. As impacts the push for harder dressage tests requiring more submission and collection for everyone. And the more you focus on the dressage for selection and training the less you focus on the xc.

On an an unrelated note I’m not surprised that the people who made it through xc to SJ looked relatively fresh. The ground was good and the course didn’t look all that mentally or physically challenging for really scopey horses. If you were lucky enough not to get caught out you and your horse probably came home feeling pretty good. But some good x horses ended up with falls and that’s not good.

4 Likes

Alright. I have tried to take some time and organize my thoughts on the Burghley course. I want to respond to two things: [LIST=1]

  • All the frangible pin breaks
  • “The field was weaker” [/LIST] With respect to the frangibles, it comes down to this for me: these are [B]emergency[/B] safety devices, designed to be a [B]point of last resort[/B] to prevent a type of fall known to have a significant chance of catastrophic injury. They are not there to make cross country look like a show jumping course. They are not there to act as some kind of back-up plan to allow a course designer to push the limits of what’s physically possible. There are many problems with this approach, of which I have listed just a few: [LIST=1]
  • The devices can fail (and will certainly fail when they are ignorantly applied, for which there is no excuse – thank you @Divine Comedy)
  • The devices are not designed to prevent horse falls, just those of the rotational variety
  • We don’t know the long term effect of teaching horses that “solid” fences can fall [/LIST] Experimenting with any of the above at the biggest track in the world is certifiably insane.

    @JER summarized it best:

    The sport has agreed that the type of falls frangible pins prevent (horse falls, and more specifically rotational horse falls) should be prevented at all costs, because they kill horses and riders with far more prevalence than any other type. The risk of serious injury to the rider alone in a rotational fall is statistically documented at one in five. Even with all of the frangible technology in play at Burghley, we saw three rotationals on Saturday. That everyone walked away was, quite literally, statistically unlikely. In other words, we got lucky. When you consider the number of rotational falls that frangible technology prevented, statistically that course was built to kill someone or something. What kind of sport is worth that price?!

    I will not, though thank you ever so much for the invitation. The “everyone good was at the Euros” argument only holds water when we are talking about percentages. The biggest problem with the course was not the percentage of non-completions, but the sheer numbers of horse falls and pin breaks. Adding more riders, or better riders, would not have changed that unless you think we would have reached a wait list scenario and those riders with fewer points would have been knocked off the entry list (not typical for Burghley). A few more clear rounds from riders who attended the Europeans would not have scraped the others off the floor.

    More than that, the following combinations that were there were punished into non-completion by this course, not because they didn’t understand the question or were being cheeky but because they actually failed to answer the test: [LIST=1]

  • Arctic Soul/Gemma Tattersall – arguably the best cross-country combination in the world
  • Faerie Dianimo/Jonelle Price – four previous 5* completions, including a win
  • Xavier Faer/Tim Price – three previous 5* completions, including top 3s at Badminton and Kentucky, and piloted by the current world number one (who had already made it around the course that day) [/LIST] These horses all genuinely tried and tried and came up short. With resumes like that, their non-completions were not a question of horse or rider talent. It strikes me as nice and victim-blamey for Mark Phillips or anyone else to point the finger at that as the primary problem.

    Jealoushe, this was perfectly said.

  • 17 Likes

    I agree with you. Equiratings has proposed something that satisfies most of this criteria, while keeping consistent with the scoring tradition of the other two phases – a Z(ero) Line. Essentially, this means picking a point of performance sufficiency in the phases, below which the score is 0.

    On cross-country and in show jumping, this “line” is already in place and is reflected by no jumping faults and finishing within the optimum time. To implement it in dressage, it could mean that any score below 28.0 is simply 0, and any score above it is the score less 28 faults. Dressage could then be used as a tie-breaker, but only if multiple people had finished on a dressage score of 28 or below (ex. only if multiple people had performed past the level of sufficiency in all three phases).

    I like this model very much because it emphasizes a well-rounded combination above all else (and because I am sick of trying to argue to outsiders that it’s not a dressage competition, when it sort of is for the very top of the board). I will be very interested to see if the model gains traction in the upcoming years.

    5 Likes

    I would just say that I believe the reasons upper level XC horses fall is primarily because they misread the question. Â It can be exacerbated by riders giving them bad information, but fundamentally it’s a miss on the case of the horse.Â

    If this is an accurate representation of CMP’s words he’s sunk lower in my estimation than before (which is really saying something.) He’s designing questions to be misread then counting on frangible pins to prevent a fall and he knows that some will misread it. That’s is mindblowingly awful. I assure you if your trying to understand the underlying philosophical differences in meSmith and DdG and CMP that’s it. Others create fences that when they are read incorrectly the horse runs out. CMP designs for falls to not be tragic because of pins.

    6 Likes

    I think it is a pretty low blow to single out Jonty Evans, who is still, I think, severely disabled.

    I saw many, many riders jump fences at Burghley and many other events with absolutely no impulsion. Many made it over by sheer heart and luck. Jonty’s horse was far from an exception.

    I also think it is really strange that people on here look at XC records for championships, and if they see a stop they read a LOT into it. well, a horse either has a preservation instinct and will stop sometimes, or it is an “always go” horse that will jump no matter what and sometimes have a fall. You can’t have it both ways. I myself, like everyone else, want to ride a game horse that will have a sensible stop but that is a very very delicate balance that is not common. At all. and it won’t reflect well on the record. Reality bites.

    I also do think the small field of many inexperienced horses and riders contributed to the statistics here. The best horses went last week for the Euro Champs. That is fine, but obviously affects the data.

    finally, everyone here loves to hate on Mark Phillips, but he said that the event told him to keep Burghley Burghley and not to soften it. Keep it fair, forward and big. He did that and regretted the gates.

    It was no secret that is what the event wants. Frankly, I prefer that to “horse trickers” which to me make it far far more like technical showjumping than big bold galloping tests. I know we applaud DDG for KY but there is nothing more showjumping that having fences come out of nowhere on short approaches.

    a showjumper needs to be incredibly in hand, schooled, and compliant to know what is next. That is the Luhmuhlen and Pau and KY. That is the “dressage over school” mode. Many horses excelled here who did not do well in the dressage.

    If we want to eliminate that kind of competition, OK. but realize you are contributing to the SJerization of Eventing. and if so, we need to start the technicality at much lower levels. Introducing technicality at Training/Prelim along with a potentially fatal rotational fall height is a recipe for disaster.

    3 Likes

    CMP and others have pointed the finger at the riders. But of course, some of the greats came to grief right along with those green to the level.

    I understand that Maltings, one of the most problematic combinations, had a much easier route available that didn’t include the big stinkin oxers. And apparently very few riders took that option. Even riders that had already had some rough obstacles were bowling right along to those giant white logs. And making the worst life choice if there was even a drop of doubt about horse scope or rider experience. But that’s what they did.

    I give at least some benefit of the doubt to the course designer that quite a few riders just shouldn’t have been out there at all. Others should have taken easier routes, and still others should have had sense enough to retire on their own (some of the later goes did retire). That doesn’t excuse the course designer for the oxers at Maltings and a few others, but I also won’t blame every problem spot on the designer. How hard is it to take the right line into a basic 5* jump that you’ll otherwise just miss on a drive by?

    But if there is anything we know about human nature it is that people aren’t good at making the “ease up” and “bail” decision when they are a) filled with adrenaline, b) overwhelmed and c) feeling the social pressure of friends, family, students, supporters, and the viewing public.

    Before they ever go out of the start box, they don’t seem to be able to make a general announcement to their supporters “I’m doing the easy routes”. Do people feel they aren’t getting their entry’s worth if they don’t do the biggest roller coaster in the park? Do their supporters not support sticking to a lower level of solid competence?

    No one likes having an oversight authority that can make a decision for the competitor. But, unfortunately, I think it’s necessary. Will there be mistakes that unfairly take something away from someone, from time to time? There will. Will the sport be safer? Very probably. It’s hard to quantify what didn’t happen as the result of intervention, but sometimes we just have to go on what we know.

    Bottom line, certain riders need to be flagged or I don’t know what, and told that to stay on course, they are required to dial it down.

    I’ve been watching the replays and watching the maltings quite a bit. It seems that several horses did not see the corner as a corner but rather as just a vertical… Does anyone know what the angle of the corner was?

    1 Like

    Just a random thought. With the Olympics next summer, attendance at Burghley will be sort of light again, as the best and the brightest will be there. Maybe most of at least the Americans will come here to Fair Hill for the inaugural 5*. Maybe, it will get a good reputation, and people will come over for that. Probably not next year, but if your horse is ready for a 5* but not quite Burghley, maybe here. We don’t get a lot of overseas for Ky, but some years we do. I bet Pippa will be here next year at Ky.

    4 Likes

    This x 1000. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I hope you will put that very well written analysis in front of every 5* course designer.

    And all of the other course designers, as well.

    :yes:

    6 Likes

    While I feel very much for his situation, it’s not a low blow.

    He crowdfunded that horse to the tune of an exorbitant price. Even at the time I was expressing my (unpopular, very unpopular) opinion that the horse’s dressage overshadowed his IMO suspect jumping. If someone is asking the general eventing community to consider contributing $ for a horse for that same someone to purchase and ride, then that same community is perfectly well entitled to publicly express their opinions on the matter, however much they cut against the fairy tale.

    Again, my point then and now is that seduction by dressage can be a very dangerous thing in eventing and the sport would do well to mitigate that issue.

    CMP always blames riders, even when they die on his courses. This year’s Burghley was really a throwback to the appalling course of 1999 at which there was a rider fatality and some serious injuries. CMP learns from his mistakes by being able to recreate them perfectly twenty years on.

    10 Likes

    Slightly OT but, I’ve been trying to find some older eventing recordings, is there a place to get them? Thanks!

    1 Like

    I agree with a lot of this post. Kentucky, Pau, and Luhmulen are basically glorified dressage shows a lot of the time (IMO). Badminton and Burghley are the 2 events where you can see riders who aren’t even close to the top after dressage have fantastic cross country rounds and move into the top ten. That is what eventing is about. People love to criticize mark philips but no one goes out and purposefully designs courses to hurt people and horses. I really think CMP is trying to keep the spirit of eventing intact by designing courses where great cross country is rewarded. A lot of the falls this weekend were certainly due to poor riding and/or failure to pull up when things were going badly. Eliza’s round was a disaster from the start. She didn’t pull up, she crashed. That guy who rode with his legs way out in front of him and who was all over the tack didn’t pull up and crashed. Many of the crashes at the maldings were because the horses had no impulsion whatsoever. It’s a really careful balance between designing difficult courses that won’t punish riders and horses and courses where half the field goes double clear.

    2 Likes

    One thing I like about Derek DiGrazia’s courses is that there is plenty of drama without the scary moments.

    On this Burghley course there was an early hedge-straddle-ditch jump (Rolex or Discovery) that was on a right turn after a nice gallop. A very kind green rolling ditch. No wings, just inviting open space on either side. Either the rider lined up for this one properly and took a bit of extra ground to do so, or they just wheeled around to it and the horse went right by it across the gentle ditch and apparently didn’t even register that it was a jump.

    I have no problem with obstacles like that. And no sympathy for the riders who miss on them. It was a great test to weed out those who were riding to the level, and those who weren’t.

    But then on arrival at the Trout Hatchery there was a big open oxer with a downhill landing, right before the left turn to the water. The landing and water visible through the water clearly drew the horse’s eyes. If the horse jumped out too boldly they would miss the turn (or go with the alternate route). But why an oxer? Probably because the horses can better see the landing than they could with a table?

    If a horse went boldly to this oxer, sailing over with trust that the rider would find the way, it was ok. Will Coleman cruised through elegantly as if it were a clinic combination. But far too many seemed to be trying to do several things at once, rather than one thing really well (the oxer).

    BUT - the many less experienced horses and riders apparently had their eye drawn not only to the landing but perhaps to the left-hand water as well. Some of the riders were resisting momentum in hopes of making that turn on the landing. But they didn’t have enough commitment for the oxer. Horses’s eyes were darting as they were trying to bank the oxer, register the water, and anticipate the turn signaled by the rider, and that’s when the logs rolled as the horses got into the oxer itself. The frangibles very probably saved more than one horse from flipping and coming down on the rider onto the drop landing.

    Unforgiving is the kindest description I can think of for this jump. Missing could mean a serious disaster and we’re lucky that didn’t happen.

    It would likely have also been bad with a table instead of an oxer. The horses would not have seen the drop landing. It was the placement and design of the entire combination that caused the problems.

    There were open oxers at so many obstacles. I was surprised enough to wonder if Burghley was short on funds for building more substantial jumps. But perhaps it was because the frangibles work more easily with the oxers? It was anticipated that the frangible collapses would be needed?

    I believe this sport can do better. I believe we can keep up the standards while constructing obstacles and courses that challenge those who do it well, without destroying those who don’t. It’s been done. But not like this course.

    12 Likes

    @OverandOnward I think that’s a great course analysis! Watching a livestream that quickly switches back and forth between different horses, it’s hard to tell how the course rides in a consistent fashion for any single combination. But it was my impression that even for the horses that made it through, many lost considerable confidence relatively early on at the Trout Hatchery, then quickly lost more at Joules at the Maltings, which came up awfully fast. Even those who navigated it successfully got pretty fried mentally as well as physically relatively soon in the course. Little room for error at both, and like you said, both the Hatchery and the Maltings were quite punishing to those who didn’t navigate the question.

    7 Likes

    They would have been better off putting a brush or rolltop or log or ramp or something that was more forgiving. You can kick and flap and scream all you want to those airy rails, but if your horse still doesn’t quite trust or respond to your leg, you’re in huge trouble, which is what happened to a LOT of riders. Any sort of hesitation meant they didn’t have the scope to clear that back rail, and that’s where CMP put his “faith” on the frangible pin to make up for his s*** design.

    I think some aspects of the course were lovely and well done, but I’ve never liked open, airy oxers or airy corners, and putting them in combinations where your impulsion must be spot-on is a terrible idea. It’s one thing to have a big airy oxer on a long approach, it’s another to have it as you’re trying to go downhill into water.

    But hey, I’m just a smurf, and what do I know? :lol:

    13 Likes