Buy American

[Perfect_Pony]

@Bent Hickory;5860596

Candidly, if someone told me that they had been looking for a horse for more than a year, I wouldn’t bother sending a video either.

See, this is the kind of stuff I am talking about that drives me nuts. What difference does it make? I LOOKED AT 25 horses over nearly a years time. I actually spent $2000 vetting the very first horse I looked at, who happened to have some bad xrays. I spent hours and days of my valuable time driving all over hill and dale to see horses that were so grossly mis-represented or lame it made me really PO’d. I spent thousands vetting horses, and took horses on trial, returning them in better condition than I found them, sometimes spending hundreds in vet and farrier work.

Yet sellers seem to get so self-righteous? Are you kidding me?

[horsetales]

I hope if someone doesn’t hear back from me (especially if I promised to get them something) they re-try and give me a phone #. I recently had an e-mail from my sister which I responded to and I just had a call from her that she didn’t get a response from me and I know this happened on another occassion Makes me worry that maybe this happens more times than I am aware of. I always respond to inquiries and unless I am out of internet service its within 24 hours

[jse]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;5860633]
See, this is the kind of stuff I am talking about that drives me nuts. What difference does it make? I LOOKED AT 25 horses over nearly a years time. I actually spent $2000 vetting the very first horse I looked at, who happened to have some bad xrays. I spent hours and days of my valuable time driving all over hill and dale to see horses that were so grossly mis-represented or lame it made me really PO’d. I spent thousands vetting horses, and took horses on trial, returning them in better condition than I found them, sometimes spending hundreds in vet and farrier work.

Yet sellers seem to get so self-righteous? Are you kidding me?[/QUOTE]
While I see your point, as a seller I also see other’s points about this subject. In Europe they don’t tit for tat and ask a million questions over email, you go with an “agent” (if you will) and you SEE the horse in person. How on earth will you ever know what a horse feels like, looks like, acts like unless you see it in person? I totally understand your frustration but I’ve been on the buying side too and based on the inquiries I get for horses I’m selling, I have never been so picky over email or telephone. I go see the animal, I search within a general range of my area as to not spend too much money on gas. I see with my own eyes instead of through a camera lens. I won’t lie, it’s totally helpful from a marketing standpoint so that some can see what a horse LOOKS like. Come feel the horse, don’t waste my time OR your time asking me tons of questions…a video is only going to tell you so much. I hope you know what I’m saying. I’m not trying to be self righteous by any means at all. It’s just as frustrating for me as it is you…

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;5860633]
Yet sellers seem to get so self-righteous? Are you kidding me?[/QUOTE]

Why does it make me self-righteous? Do I or do I not have the right to decide how to spend my time?

The buyers who 1) have actually bought a horse from me or 2) have bothered to come visit and see the horses I have for sale, share many things in common. For buyers that share many or most of these characteristics, I will bend over backwards as a seller. By now, I have a pretty good idea of the profile of the buyer who is likely to buy a horse from me and I promise you, it’s not someone who has been looking for an extended period of time.

So, instead of wasting time updating videos/pictures every six weeks for every buyer that MIGHT be serious, I’m engaging in activities that actually create a long term sales channel to ACTUAL buyers. Just like every other SERIOUS business…

[jse]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;5860918]
Why does it make me self-righteous? Do I or do I not have the right to decide how to spend my time?

The buyers who 1) have actually bought a horse from me or 2) have bothered to come visit and see the horses I have for sale, share many things in common. For buyers that share many or most of these characteristics, I will bend over backwards as a seller. I have a pretty good idea of the profile of the buyer who is likely to buy a horse from me and I promise you, it’s not someone who has been looking for an extended period of time.

So, instead of wasting time updating videos/pictures every six weeks for every buyer that MIGHT be serious, I’m engaging in activities that actually create a long term sales channel to ACTUAL buyers. Just like every other SERIOUS business…[/QUOTE]
We seriously need a LIKE button here on COTH!

[Tiki]

To be honest I really don’t know, because I would get long hard-sell emails promising pictures and video and then nothing. A few breeders would tell me how they didn’t have time, or the technology, or whatever, then next thing I know they are off showing in Florida or shopping in Europe.
And then there are those of us with really nice horses who send out (or provide a link to) good pictures and videos, have a conversation or 2 with a potential buyer who promises to come and look and never hear from them again. If a buyer is sooooo interested, why don’t they follow through?

The road runs both ways.

[back_in_the_saddle]

When I was looking some wouldn’t even send a video but expected me to go fly to see the horse in person. LOL ha… NO! In my view, they weren’t serious about selling or something was wrong with the horse and they knew a video would certainly not get me there so why bother. If someone expects a buyer to fly to a location to see a horse, they’d better provide a video so the buyer gets closer to making that airline reservation. No video…no come lookie at horsie. PERIOD.

I looked for a loooong time. It wasn’t consistant looking as in go look every weekend. It was go look at a horse (fly clear from east coast to west coast) took a whole weekend, go home and search ads some more for a month or two more, go look when my schedule allowed (not an easy feat), etc… Over the course of a year I only went to see 3 horses before finding one. During that time frame, I’d guess that at least 75% of all ads I called or emailed about 1)never got a response or 2) horse was sold already and the ad wasn’t updated.

I can certainly understand why people go to Europe. It’s quick and easy. Lots of nice horses can be seen in a very short period of time. People will take the easy way, especially if they have the money to do so. In my case, that 6k import fee had to be part of the horse cost so importing from europe wasn’t an option, I HAD to find something here.

So if sellers want to sell, they’d better make their sales horses EASY to find EASY to get to, and EASY to see on line without the buyer having to ask too many questions. If all the information is online from the start, it would be a huge time saver for both buyer AND seller. And prices… I hated when prices weren’t listed. Did those people want to sell a horse or not? Rolling Stone Farm has the best sales site out there IMO and sellers should copy what they do. The price reflects the quality of the horse and all info including video is there.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5860997]
Rolling Stone Farm has the best sales site out there IMO and sellers should copy what they do. The price reflects the quality of the horse and all info including video is there.[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, wow, not all of us can stand our own stallions and breed dozens of horses per year. That is a relatively unique business model.

[Perfect_Pony]

@Tiki;5860994

And then there are those of us with really nice horses who send out (or provide a link to) good pictures and videos, have a conversation or 2 with a potential buyer who promises to come and look and never hear from them again. If a buyer is sooooo interested, why don’t they follow through?

The road runs both ways.

Of course it runs both ways! But as a seller you can make one nice sales video, create a web page with detailed information ONCE, and wait for people to contact you, or not. As a buyer I spend hours and hours and hours of my time for every single horse I look at. I just don’t think asking for somewhat updated pictures and a video showing all 3 gaits is a big request.

I know it’s tough from both sides. I know many posters on here do take the time and make the effort to sell their horses in a professional manner, it seems those are the ones selling the young horses. In my case I would have had a better time if I had been looking for yearlings/2 year olds (Simba still shows up in my horsey dreams but I wanted something ready to ride.

I was only making the point that sellers should make an effort, and not make assumptions about buyers based on the time they have been looking and how many horses they have looked at.

[Xanthoria]

@Bent Hickory;5860596

Candidly, if someone told me that they had been looking for a horse for more than a year, I wouldn’t bother sending a video either.

I suppose more accurately I should say “I’ve been trying to get sellers to send me videos of horses for a year. And (mostly) failing.”

The way the horses within driving distance have fallen short of their descriptions from sellers leaves me utterly disinclined to get on a plane to see similarly described horses in person without a video. I prefer to spend my money on a horse, than plane tickets.

(They’re ALL 10 mover and 10 jumpers! All youngsters have the BEST temperaments bar none. And every last one of them will go ALL the way to the TOP unless someone literally locks the stable door to prevent them from making it into a show ring)

I’m sure sellers would much rather my budget wasn’t whittled away over time with fruitless air travel, so I’d be less inclined to try to bargain on the price, or skip a sale altogether?

[Xanthoria]

@Tiki;5860994

And then there are those of us with really nice horses who send out (or provide a link to) good pictures and videos, have a conversation or 2 with a potential buyer who promises to come and look and never hear from them again. If a buyer is sooooo interested, why don’t they follow through?

Because sending someone a video isn’t a contract to buy: they may see something that doesn’t suit them, but you have saved them the trip and they will remember you for it.

I have sent three friends this year to see horses I inquired about but didn’t buy, and they bought them. I told them the seller was someone I’d be happy to do business with, and they made the sale.

But without a video, you won’t even get a bite of interest except from people within short driving distance.

Send a video which generates a conversation, and you have a chance.

[Xanthoria]

@Perfect Pony;5860633

See, this is the kind of stuff I am talking about that drives me nuts. What difference does it make? I LOOKED AT 25 horses over nearly a years time. I actually spent $2000 vetting the very first horse I looked at, who happened to have some bad xrays. I spent hours and days of my valuable time driving all over hill and dale to see horses that were so grossly mis-represented or lame it made me really PO’d. I spent thousands vetting horses, and took horses on trial, returning them in better condition than I found them, sometimes spending hundreds in vet and farrier work.

I could have written this post word for word. :no:

[dianehalpin]

A friend of Joe Fargis told me recently that he has said that the U.S. now has a ten year supply of international-caliber jumpers bred here so I think we must be on the right track.

Rick had a very, very good idea to pool quite a few breeders’ horses in one nice facility within a geographical area to present to buyers with firm appointments all the equine prospects fitting the buyer’s specifications as closely as possible. MidAtlantic Hanoverian Breeders generally sends a bulletin to all the MAHB members whenever a potential buyer gets in touch with the organization, giving his/her requirements sought in a prospect or performance animal. We’ve all then generally gotten in touch with the buyer as individuals if we had a prospect fitting their requirements. I really like the possibility of actually physically pulling the prospects together and presenting them one by one in a businesslike way to the buyer at a nice facility. The buyer has to be pretty committed to presenting himself/herself on time to make this work - in other words, a firm appointment.

Diane Halpin: Facebook Laurel Leaf Hanoverians: Facebook

[smokygirl]

I think there are several issues at work here.

1. Unrealistic expectations of buyers and sellers.

   • It is unreasonable to expect everyone to get on a plane w/o having some clue what they are going to be looking at, so yes… updated videos, websites, photos (etc) are key. It’s also unreasonable to expect every person to like your horse as much as you do, and think they are worth the price you put on them.
   • It is unrealistic to expect anyone to sell you a “made” horse, at baby prices. If you want a horse that has training, or is guaranteed, or you expect certain things out of, then don’t look at wnlg-3yo horses. (a friend and I were talking about a 2yo dressage prospect she has that she keeps getting calls from 1. Amateurs who want to learn to ride dressage or 2. People who think the market is so bad that she should be willing to give it away, mostly wanna-be BNT’s who think she should be “grateful that she will get free promotion”. . (and she gets asked about collection and extension, sidepasses, etc… umm… isn’t that something that usually comes after the horse is under saddle?.. that’s mostly from the amateurs obviously)
   • Really, Really good horses, are still selling. They aren’t free leasing them. They don’t need to.

2. It works a lot better to network than to diss other people’s horses, to make yours look better.

Brand unity would help. Sadly the AWS and AWR get a bad rap (not the purpose of this thread)… but there is no “American Warmblood”. I think having a WB (not Draft, Paint, Morgan, etc X) book would highly improve this. Why are we still calling foals born here, for instance, a Dutch WB, when they’ve never been to Holland? They are American, of Dutch breeding. (like I am an american, of Irish and German breeding… but i’m not Irish nor German).

[horsey1cr]

[QUOTE=back in the saddle;5860997]
When I was looking some wouldn’t even send a video but expected me to go fly to see the horse in person. LOL ha… NO! In my view, they weren’t serious about selling or something was wrong with the horse and they knew a video would certainly not get me there so why bother. If someone expects a buyer to fly to a location to see a horse, they’d better provide a video so the buyer gets closer to making that airline reservation. No video…no come lookie at horsie. PERIOD.

I looked for a loooong time. It wasn’t consistant looking as in go look every weekend. It was go look at a horse (fly clear from east coast to west coast) took a whole weekend, go home and search ads some more for a month or two more, go look when my schedule allowed (not an easy feat), etc… Over the course of a year I only went to see 3 horses before finding one. During that time frame, I’d guess that at least 75% of all ads I called or emailed about 1)never got a response or 2) horse was sold already and the ad wasn’t updated.

I can certainly understand why people go to Europe. It’s quick and easy. Lots of nice horses can be seen in a very short period of time. People will take the easy way, especially if they have the money to do so. In my case, that 6k import fee had to be part of the horse cost so importing from europe wasn’t an option, I HAD to find something here.

So if sellers want to sell, they’d better make their sales horses EASY to find EASY to get to, and EASY to see on line without the buyer having to ask too many questions. If all the information is online from the start, it would be a huge time saver for both buyer AND seller. And prices… I hated when prices weren’t listed. Did those people want to sell a horse or not? Rolling Stone Farm has the best sales site out there IMO and sellers should copy what they do. The price reflects the quality of the horse and all info including video is there.[/QUOTE]

Yep totally agree with this post!

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;5861146]
In my case I would have had a better time if I had been looking for yearlings/2 year olds (Simba still shows up in my horsey dreams but I wanted something ready to ride. [/QUOTE]

Simba is blushing His new mom is a super person from the west coast.

[smm20]

Don’t forget that horse shopping in Europe is also an opportunity to go to Europe and see things - a vacation. Those people who are buying in England - they are spending two days in London shopping at Harrods and taking photos of Big Ben. Selle Francais = trip to Paris. Go to Germany and tour Berlin, visit a castle and drink bier. Horse shop in the Netherlands for three days, then and spend an hour in a cafe in Amsterdam, followed by two hours contemplating the beauty of a bridge .

Now, I’m not bashing the US for vacation destinations - I fondly remember my college admissions trip to colonial Williamsburg. But you have to admit that a trip to Europe can be very fun and very special. I don’t know if US breeders can compete with that.

[Equilibrium]

I don’t really want to post much here anymore but this is an interesting topic. Beyond the video’s and such, a few key points.

1. When you hop on a plane to Europe you are meeting a group of youngsters at an auction or from an agent. The agent has a group of sales horses. He does not have a group of well bred looking for forever home horses.

2. People buy in Europe as emotion is left out of the equation. That does not mean you won’t get that horse home and it is your heart horse. It just means you can see a group of horses without emotion on the sellers side.

3. It is a business over here first and foremost. That’s it. You sell the horse for what you want and sell the others the same. If horses that are bred don’t cut it in the breeders’ eyes well chances are it’s culled. It can do the job bred for and is a good representative of what you breed or not.

4. In Europe the bloodlines are there. That is just part and parcel of the breeding job of a seller. I’m on about the horses people are flying in to see. Even if the mare herself was never under saddle, her relatives close up, have performance horses. If you want performance horses you may have to produce a few yourself. Performance testing is good but I wouldn’t hold a foal inspection as proof of ability. But quite often people would like to know what relatives have done. Don’t expect others to do what you won’t.

5. From what I gather from posts here is that it’s much cheaper to breed and raise a horse here also. That is significant in price refexions even with import costs. So if your using unproven stock, I do too, it is still going to cost you a heap to get that foal on the ground. Not every horse bred in Europe is a stallion or broodmare prospect, but prices reflect that. In the states I see a lot of horses out of unproven stock with big price tags. Unless you start putting miles on your lines, it really doesn’t matter what stallion you’ve picked and how much you’ve spent getting it on the ground. You can get better value on an average horse in Europe even with import. And when I say average over here, it’s pretty good.

6. This thinking that because you bought a really good mare in Europe everyone will now stay home and buy, probably not. You have one foal out of a State champion. In Europe lots of foals out of State champions. That’s the difference and having an attitude about it won’t endear you to the buying public.

Ideas that have been put forth to pool together and help each other out is great. On my Irish Breeders group we have been talking about the same thing. We want Ireland to stop being known as the land of the cheap riding horse. We are trying to put a group together of good breeders and producers. Many don’t want their horses going through the loose jumping as 3yo’s and pushing really nice 4yo’s just to get decent money. People are trying to breed decent horses with motherlines, ect but having a decent place to shop for good horses brought along slowly is limited. So somewhat similar.

And look at people like Sakura Hill. I love them. Everything is professional and horses bred and raised for performance. They are trying to make it easier for all breeders in the States with the same goals.

But honestly you have to leave the emotion behind and sell. And be honest. Those 2 things will go a long way.

Terri

[Equilibrium]

And also remember it does not matter if you sell for 1k or 100k. Potential buyers are the same. Some serious, some not so serious. You just have to deal with it. If you start remembering that instead of having an attitude it helps.

Terri

[alexandra]

Well well from what I have been reading over the years is something that may hinder success for some people in breeding and selling in the USA because some may ruin the thing for others and I will compare that to what you find in Germany
I am generalizing here and describe my major impression over the years - knowing ther are other breeders and buyers with different attitude, but it is my general picture

• people think if I have a mare imported, sps titel and an inspection score of an 8 plus test with an 8 and maybe winner of class or show - bingo foal is automatically an FEI prospect ( whatever that may be…) they do not judge on what they have but only paper form -that is not what breeding is about !

Am typing from an IPad please excuse the typos…

• people know about their mare but hat is about it. If you ask and what has come out of that dam line - you draw a blank ( I know that it is not easy to find out more from horse bred and sold in the USA but that is where good sales marketing comes in place - keep in touch with you buyers in a kind of preossional way - do not expect them to send updates every fortnight) if you have an imported mare either research yourself when buying her or pay someone in Germany to put effort into finding out about the dam line in a more detailed way.

• people tend to have in their adds to show home only, lifetime place etc. Free yourself as a buyer that you have any influence on what will happen to your horses. You want to sell - sell in heavens sake - if you want to decide about your horses life you have to keep it. Obviously I am much more happy to have a horse in a good home as showhome for publicity etc. but I just do not have the influence to rule that for a 100%. And also the other homes are good !

• a decent sale video is not that much of an effort. O.k. With free jumping it may be, but if you breed jumpers you should prepare yourself that buyers may just want a jumping video - right ???
  By the way 3’ 6’ is what ? 90 cm ? That is what we do with anyone except for the not so talented dressage bred ones in their second or third chute without any problem. A matter of how it is done and yet again - a jumping horse breeder should be prepared to be able to do such a video - what are they doing when buyer come in person and want to see a jump ?

-all the US breeders that I can see that are successful at what they do, I can see what they do. Educate themselves to a broad extent very often including going to Germany on a regular base. Just recently I discussed with a lady from the US that she says most Us breeders lack to see a whole bunch of quality foals to learn how to judge them. Especially if you see them in a foal show. While she was there this summer, we met her at 2 shows. A foal show with almost 80 foals in from different registries and a foal show with also 90 Hanoverians. Than again at a mare show with also about 80 mares. I know she has been at even more shows within a timeframe of about a week she may have seen about 500 horse put in an order and commented (after a while and with some translation help one even gets the picture of what is being said) and you get. Ideas about which stallion produces what on which mares.

• horses over here are priced according to their quality or whether they have to go or not at end of summer, no matter how much money is in them. Economical decisions clearly in a lot of cases the driver here.

And one has to face as a breeder that you need to put as we say heartblood in it. Intuition and dedication. A choice for a stallion does not just come from paper. It must be a guts feeling. And you have to be clear with yourself: is this something I would decide again or not ? So far I have made two decisions that I was not happy with after breeding and before birth. One ended up in a disaster from the health point of view. Foal had to be put down. Not that that was something to be foreseen, but I debated the hole time I do not think this decision was the right one. There was another one I did not have a good feeling about and it happened to turn out just exactly like that what I feared. It is not a bad horse (3 above average gaits and great mind and pretty). owner is very happy with it and it is in a good local showhome, but the filly is going to be huuuuuge as in huuuuuge. And the owner is riding also ponies, so imagine what we will face next year when she starts riding this than mare.

• start networking as a breeder, keep in touch with the buyers ( but not unnervingly !!!) get word of mouth about your breeding program going !