So you’re basically saying that the higher the horse’s asking price, the more likely the seller will discuss wiggle room because there is more room to wiggle …
Does that mean higher price tags have more padding, I wonder…
I don’t think it’s that prices are padded, I just think there’s just more room for worthwhile negotiation. As you go up in price, there are less buyers, so you have to give more consideration to the offers you get.
As an imperfect rule of thumb, I’d say that for every 10k you’re willing to spend, you could look at horses around 2k over budget. If your budget is $50k, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at a horse priced at $60k.
[QUOTE=GGStables;8625681]
So you’re basically saying that the higher the horse’s asking price, the more likely the seller will discuss wiggle room because there is more room to wiggle …
Does that mean higher price tags have more padding, I wonder…[/QUOTE]
Padding?
Horses are much like art. No one needs one and spending money on them is a personal value call. In that sense, it is all padded. The question for the seller is if there is at least one accessible buyer for that horse at that price.
If you phone about a horse that is 25k and you offer 20k, that is fair (more so then offering $500 for a $5500 horse).
What bugs most sellers is when the buyer tries to devalue the horse in question or tells the owner the original asking price is too much. All of that is rude.
If your really interested, drop them a message that tells them how nice you think the horse is and the max you have to spend and thank them for their time. They can decide if they think the offer is good for them.
For instance, a friend (a breeder of the horse) of mine had a lovely horse, one that I liked. Friend thought the horse was worth x and I thought much more as I saw different things. The horse sold in an auction for much more than I even thought, by about 7k. So if my friend would have priced and sold the horse privately, is would have been sold for less than half the price, some trainer would have marked her up and made a bunch. If I would have sold her, it would have been less of a steal. The people bidding, at that moment, thought the horse was worth more. If they (the bidders with the money and interest) were not at that sale, I might have been more accurate.
If you were the seller and could see into the future you would ask for the sales price or a bit more. So which number is padded?
It makes more sense to think about it in % rather than dollars. That you will look at horses with in 10-15% of your budget, for example.
Hmm…I’m not sure. I’m not sure if it’s apples to apples, Stoicfish. To me, your example illustrates more about where the seller-at-the-time’s mind is at, not about whether there is wiggle room, or not.
I’m starting to confuse myself:)
Look, a horse is only as valuable as what someone will pay for it, right? So my question is this:
As sellers, do we evaluate the horse and ad some “padding” to that as sacrifice in anticipation of the negotiations part, or, when we price a horse, it is truly the value we perceive? If the latter, then I can see why it would be troubling to a seller when people haggle/barter/squirm to pay it. If the former, it’s pretty depressing as a buyer to try and figure out what’s real value and what is sacrificial padding.
[QUOTE=Scribbler;8622280]
I read the OP not as how do you transfer the money safely, but more like: how in the world do people find the money to buy these horses? 
And the answer, I think, is a mystery
We have a similar mystery locally with real estate. A three bedroom bungalow starter home is now $1.1 million, a two bedroom condo about $500,000. Salary increases have been flat the past decade. (SNIP) [/QUOTE]
I read the OP the same way; as in, how do people afford these pricey creatures?
To that I say, many people spend that much or more on things like cars, for example - and no one thinks much about it. Is a horse more of a luxury than say, a Mercedes? A BMW? A Lexus? Because it’s quite easy to spend $40K or more on a car and people do it every day.
Now, it’s true that people very often finance those cars at very attractive rates, so perhaps that is a point of difference. But think of other things that people might choose to spend disposable income on in that ball park, pricewise. Country club memberships. Building a pool in the backyard. Taking pricey vacations.
So I would say it comes down to personal choice and what someone chooses to spend money on. My car is older and paid for, and instead of buying a new one this year, I bought a really nice 4 year old, for example. It’s all about tradeoffs.
Cars are a bad analogy. People actually need them to get through their day-to-day lives. Nobody needs a horse.
What’s more, cars are typically less expensive to keep compared to a horse, unless you own significant property and invest nothing in training, showing, etc.
The art analogy made by another poster was spot on. Anything beyond their worth as meat is perceived value.
When it comes to buying and selling, I approach horses no differently than real estate. I’ll put in any offer I think is fair for that particular animal. If I feel they are asking way more than I think the horse is worth, then I may not bother, but I certainly don’t worry about making some seller, who I don’t know from Adam, feel angry or sad or slighted or whatever. If they say no, then I thank them for their time, leave my information in case they change their mind, and move on. I don’t worry about “padding” in the price if I feel the horse is well-valued. On the other hand, I’ve gotten lots of sellers to come down 20%.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8625911]
Cars are a bad analogy. People actually need them to get through their day-to-day lives. Nobody needs a horse.
What’s more, cars are typically less expensive to keep compared to a horse, unless you own significant property and invest nothing in training, showing, etc.
The art analogy made by another poster was spot on. Anything beyond their worth as meat is perceived value.
When it comes to buying and selling, I approach horses no differently than real estate. I’ll put in any offer I think is fair for that particular animal. If I feel they are asking way more than I think the horse is worth, then I may not bother, but I certainly don’t worry about making some seller, who I don’t know from Adam, feel angry or sad or slighted or whatever. If they say no, then I thank them for their time, leave my information in case they change their mind, and move on. I don’t worry about “padding” in the price if I feel the horse is well-valued. On the other hand, I’ve gotten lots of sellers to come down 20%.[/QUOTE]
Bless your heart. Whether you need personal transportation or not, my point was that no one NEEDS a pricey new luxury car.
You could easily buy an inexpensive/used car and spend the money on a horse instead. I know quite a few people who’ve done that (and others who have bought more modest homes, etc, in order to afford their horses.) The point was simply that everyone makes choices about how to spend their income, and that coming up with the amount specified (I think the OP said $20K) was not really that unusual a spend for other commonly purchased items a household might choose to buy.
[QUOTE=Lucassb;8625918]
The point was simply that everyone makes choices about how to spend their income, and that coming up with the amount specified (I think the OP said $20K) was not really that unusual a spend for other commonly purchased items a household might choose to buy.[/QUOTE]
I suppose it depends on what circles you run in. The vast majority of Americans cannot afford to spend 20k on anything… let alone on a money-sink frivolity like a horse. The median household income is 52k per year, after all.
Lots of Americans are financed to the teeth in order to afford their frivolities… their phones, cars, homes, furniture, TVs, vacations, you name it… they don’t really own any of it. That’s why you see people, even at expensive facilities, not wanting to call vets, not paying board on time, etc. They can’t actually afford that 20k horse either.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8626078]
I suppose it depends on what circles you run in. The vast majority of Americans cannot afford to spend 20k on anything… let alone on a money-sink frivolity like a horse. The median household income is 52k per year, after all.
Lots of Americans are financed to the teeth in order to afford their frivolities… their phones, cars, homes, furniture, TVs, vacations, you name it… they don’t really own any of it. That’s why you see people, even at expensive facilities, not wanting to call vets, not paying board on time, etc. They can’t actually afford that 20k horse either.[/QUOTE]
Sure. Most people do not have horses. Depending on which research you follow, roughly a third of horse owners have incomes below $50K, and a third are north of $100K. (http://www.theequestrianchannel.com/id3.html)
But plenty of people do have horses, and plenty of them spend $20k or north of that, and not all of those people are super wealthy. Some of them just choose to spend their money on horses instead of other things that they might purchase. Lots of my colleagues have bigger houses and newer cars than I do; no one thinks twice about those purchases. I choose to spend more money on horses, and I don’t think I am particularly unusual amongst horse owners “in my circle.” I don’t see people scrimping on care or not paying their bills, though I am sure it happens. Just not common in my experience.
[QUOTE=Lucassb;8626256]
But plenty of people do have horses, and plenty of them spend $20k or north of that, and not all of those people are super wealthy. Some of them just choose to spend their money on horses instead of other things that they might purchase. Lots of my colleagues have bigger houses and newer cars than I do; no one thinks twice about those purchases. I choose to spend more money on horses, and I don’t think I am particularly unusual amongst horse owners “in my circle.” I don’t see people scrimping on care or not paying their bills, though I am sure it happens. Just not common in my experience.[/QUOTE]
Your posts come across as rather smug.
Houses can be a smart investment, and you have to live somewhere. Most people need a vehicle to be able to function in society in this country. That’s why nobody thinks twice about those purchases. Dressage horses? That’s a FAIL on both counts. They’re expensive anachronisms.
Even an expensive car probably costs less to drive than maintaing a horse, and it won’t cripple itself while parked in the garage.
Lots of shaky financial situations in the horse world. Lots of people operating on a shoestring, though sometimes it’s on a grand scale. A 20k upfront cost is not an inconsequential amount of money, even for someone earning 100k per year. I can think of several people who used some pretty creative financing to be able to afford the purchase price of a nice horse. I can think of several more who had to sell because of divorce… they just couldn’t swing it as a single income.
People paying late or skimping on things to save money in the horse world is pretty common.
Yes, my point.
[QUOTE=TickleFight;8626390]
Your posts come across as rather smug.
Houses can be a smart investment, and you have to live somewhere. Most people need a vehicle to be able to function in society in this country. That’s why nobody thinks twice about those purchases. Dressage horses? That’s a FAIL on both counts. They’re expensive anachronisms.
Even an expensive car probably costs less to drive than maintaing a horse, and it won’t cripple itself while parked in the garage.
Lots of shaky financial situations in the horse world. Lots of people operating on a shoestring, though sometimes it’s on a grand scale. A 20k upfront cost is not an inconsequential amount of money, even for someone earning 100k per year. I can think of several people who used some pretty creative financing to be able to afford the purchase price of a nice horse. I can think of several more who had to sell because of divorce… they just couldn’t swing it as a single income.
People paying late or skimping on things to save money in the horse world is pretty common.[/QUOTE]
I think you are thinking of a group of people that are NOT at all what LucassB is talking about. They are talking about people with true disposable income or potential for disposable income. By potential I mean having a functional car and nice horse versus a new fancy car. Either way that person has a car, but is it a cheaper car or $100,000+ suv?? And yes these people very much exist. Not talking about the people who need to finance the purchase of a car or horse. These are people who can afford a 20K horse without debt or second thought, maybe it’s no vacation this year to them. My friend growing up got a $75,000 YR horse gifted by her grandpa, so instead she drove a new but less fancy car so she could put more money into her horse/lessons/etc.
Then you have the ultra rich, the 1% types. They have serious cash. I have seen sponsors of trainers buy horses in the 6 digits just because the trainer liked the horse, not that the sponsor knew anything about horses, just liked to be around them on the “farm” or say they “owned a fine horse”. I know of a few of these… it’s like no big deal kind of cash.
I wouldn’t call LucassB smug at all, they are describing an accurate portion of horse owners. By all means not the majority, but for sure a portion. You seem to be arguing more about people who don’t have the disposable amounts that LucassB is discussing about. A car and house will always be in the mix for these people, but maybe a slightly less fancy version so they can afford their horse habit.
And no…nobody thinks horses are a sound financial investment. Very few horses would qualify as an investment. To even say that compared to a house purchase is silly. The upkeep on a horse is substantial, which you acknowledge. Sure you buy a youngster and train it up to a valuable high level horse. But the time dollars, vet care, farrier work and upkeep eat away at the profit exceedingly quickly. The investment stallion types in the high figures may be a ok investment if they can cover a lot of mares, but again you have the super rich playing in that field.
How can I afford my two fancy horses and full-service board?
I work full time as a lawyer and I did not buy them until I was over 35 and had the disposable income for their purchases and board/care bills. (similar to the car buying analogy - when you are considering a luxury car or an investment in real art, then moving to shopping for horses that sell above $20k is not a big leap)
How did I actually pay for them? Cashier’s check for one and wire transfer for the other.
I used a money order most recently, trainer and I run in the same circles so she would’ve been able to find me if it was fraudulent (it wasn’t obviously lol).
As for where the money came from to buy him, my mother had set up a Check Deposit account for me when I was in middle school, she figured I would eventually want to use it to buy a nicer young horse, and kept dumping all my birthday, graduation, special occasion, whatever checks in there and letting the account grow. It finally matured this spring, I am two years post-undergrad, and we used it to purchase my new guy ($20k - $30k range).
I would never take out a loan to buy a horse, there are always riding opportunities to be found while you save.
[QUOTE=Moogles;8626475]
I think you are thinking of a group of people that are NOT at all what LucassB is talking about. They are talking about people with true disposable income or potential for disposable income. By potential I mean having a functional car and nice horse versus a new fancy car. Either way that person has a car, but is it a cheaper car or $100,000+ suv?? And yes these people very much exist. Not talking about the people who need to finance the purchase of a car or horse. These are people who can afford a 20K horse without debt or second thought, maybe it’s no vacation this year to them. My friend growing up got a $75,000 YR horse gifted by her grandpa, so instead she drove a new but less fancy car so she could put more money into her horse/lessons/etc.
Then you have the ultra rich, the 1% types. They have serious cash. I have seen sponsors of trainers buy horses in the 6 digits just because the trainer liked the horse, not that the sponsor knew anything about horses, just liked to be around them on the “farm” or say they “owned a fine horse”. I know of a few of these… it’s like no big deal kind of cash.
I wouldn’t call LucassB smug at all, they are describing an accurate portion of horse owners. By all means not the majority, but for sure a portion. You seem to be arguing more about people who don’t have the disposable amounts that LucassB is discussing about. A car and house will always be in the mix for these people, but maybe a slightly less fancy version so they can afford their horse habit.
And no…nobody thinks horses are a sound financial investment. Very few horses would qualify as an investment. To even say that compared to a house purchase is silly. The upkeep on a horse is substantial, which you acknowledge. Sure you buy a youngster and train it up to a valuable high level horse. But the time dollars, vet care, farrier work and upkeep eat away at the profit exceedingly quickly. The investment stallion types in the high figures may be a ok investment if they can cover a lot of mares, but again you have the super rich playing in that field.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, Moogles, you nailed it. And I would totally agree that no one thinks of horses as a smart investment!!
Cashier’s check or wire transfer, depending on the seller’s preferences.
I fall into that group of people Moogles described. I make a six-figure income as a project manager and live in an inexpensive part of the country. The monthly cost of full board for me is about the same as the payment for a nice newer car. Housing is relatively inexpensive here.
The only debt I have is my house. I pay cash for nice, older used cars and then keep them forever. I paid cash for my horse trailer.
When I was younger (I turn 40 this year) I did use 0% credit cards on a limited basis, and paid them off before interest kicked in. I don’t regret doing that, but now I’m at a point where if I don’t have the cash, I don’t buy.
[QUOTE=GGStables;8625460]
This is timely.
I haven’t bought a horse for more than 10 years and feel completely flat-footed in my search. My problem is all about whether or not I contact the seller in the first place when I know my budget does not match their asking price.
Do you guys have a rule of thumb, for example, where your search would include horses at an additional $5K above your budget? 10K?..$20??? And have you actually contacted a seller knowing your budget is not their asking price?[/QUOTE]
I have been on both the buyers and sellers end of this scenario. I think that if your max is at least 3/4 of the asking price, that it is OK to call. If you know at the outset that you absolutely cannot/will not pay the asking price, then I think the best thing to do is to disclose your max price on the first phone call/e-mail and ask the seller if he/she thinks it woud be worthwhile to show you the horse under those circumstances. If they price is firm, they have the opportunity to say so, and not to waste either of your time.
If your budget is less than 3/4 of the asking price, I wouldn’t even bother calling or e-mailing.
I paid for both of my horses with personal check, but only the second one was over $20K.
For me, my financial situation and how I afforded them has changed over time. I bought my first horse in my mid-20’s and am embarrassed to admit that I bought him with my company’s MBA tuition reimbursement (so i essentially took a loan). I know better and paid with student loans for a long time!
By the time I bought my second horse, I was in upper management for a large company and had more disposable income. I will likely by another as one of my horses nears retirement. The downside I am facing right now is that, while I finally have the funds to support my horse habit, I travel a lot and have limited time to enjoy them.
