C6 / C7 changes - Long Term Care

[beowulf]

[quote=“Old_Mac_Donald, post:37, topic:472309, full:true”]
I have a couple of questions, and I apologise in advance if they have already been answered:

1. Is it possible to have malformations with NO neurological symptoms, but instead only behavioural (horse won’t ‘round up’ to keep it simple, but is extraordinarily sure-footed and can jump clean and safe)?[/quote]
   Sure. The malformations being what you’re asking specifically, there are plenty of horses who perform well and soundly with malformations. Most TBs and WBs likely have the malformation, just from my experience being present at x-ray screenings for sale horses (eventers mostly).

[quote=“Old_Mac_Donald”]
2. If you have/had/know of a (1) horse (poor behaviour, no neuro), were you able to improve the horse’s behaviour by treatment (i.e. removing a source of pain) or did you find that the behaviour was linked to the horse being physically unable to perform the task, rather than the task causing pain?[/quote]
Not me specifically, but for horses with bony changes there are many therapeutic approaches one has at their disposal. Neck injections, surgery, therapies like Osphos.

[quote=“Old_Mac_Donald”]
3. I know that this often affects swan-necked or long-necked horses, but what about short-necked cresty ponies, or Iberian breeds? [/quote]
AFAIK, there are no definitive studies linking the C6/C7 changes (or the C6/C7 malformation, a separate thing) with specific neck anatomy… but I have heard (conjecture, purely anecdotal) people I respect the opinion of suggesting the neck’s anatomy comes into play.

[quote=“Old_Mac_Donald”]
4. Has anyone ever found changes at C5-C6-C7 level on an x-ray… and yet the horse showed no symptoms or behavioural issues? [/quote]
Yes. Plenty of veterinarians. I even have one myself, the finding was incidental.

It’s not to say that malformation findings are no big deal… but look at the horse in front of you. Is it sound, doing the job you want? Or is it neurological? I’m with MVP – now that we have the ability to actually look at the neck out in the field, we’re going to see a lot more of it. We still don’t understand what is ‘normal’ versus ‘pathological’ for the horse’s spine - just like kissing spine, there is a huge prevalence of horses out there with bad looking x-rays and no clinical signs of pain. The horse in front of you will tell you.

[beowulf]

I think that video is worth a watch just to broaden someone’s perspectives, but I wouldn’t take it as 100% gospel. The horses shown in that video also had terrible feet and other things that could have contributed to their performance. It’s no peer reviewed study.

[Jealoushe]

Yeah for sure, the dissection photos compared to the horses photos or videos was very interesting though. As always, look at the whole horse.

[TBKite]

I think the next thing to study is definitely to try to determine the clinical significance. If it’s that prevalent I bet there are a lot with signs that are at least mild enough to go unnoticed, if not completely absent.

[Simkie]

Here’s the thread where we talked about specific TB sires with neck issues:

Interesting article c6-c7 malformation

[TBKite]

As to her claim of the death threat, I’m just taking her at her word. But the owner of two large TB operations in the middle east has made two of his own daughters disappear, and his wife fled to Europe with her two kids and legally sought asylum. It really doesn’t seem that much of a stretch.

[Jealoushe]

Thank you

[mvp]

@TBKite

I think the next thing to study is definitely to try to determine the clinical significance. If it’s that prevalent I bet there are a lot with signs that are at least mild enough to go unnoticed, if not completely absent.

It would be great to study and determine some threshold of malformation that makes it clinically significant.

But they are weird, developmental or epi-genetic anomalies. I have seen some examples of these vertebrae (and malformed cribs at the top of the rib cage) in person. There is quite the variation. Then, I looked at a diagram the folks had showing which muscled attached to these missing or reduced chunks of vertebra. “In other words,” I asked myself, “What mechanical differences does it actually make if this bit is missing? What attaches to it, and what functional work does that muscle or ligament actually do?” IIRC, it’s the little, short muscles between individual adjacent vertebrae that would be deprived of large, symmetrical points of attachment on these malformed vertegbrae. Does that mean neurological symptoms? Just a weak and wiggly base of the neck? What if the ribs deep to the shoulder blades are shorter than they should be? How does that matter for a ridden horse?

The point is that because the malformations vary so much, I think the mechanical- and thus clinical effects will vary, too.

I do think it’s a grand idea-- easy and simple, to at least x-ray C6 using that correct technique to see if you are dealing with any sort of malformation. And, large or small, I think no horse exhibiting it should be bred.

[cardinale]

mvp, I’ve wondered the same, and also whether if there’s malformation, can the muscles, ligaments etc. compensate by attaching somewhat differently during embryogenesis/fetal development?

I also just started a new topic re PPE and whether to use a more experienced vet who however doesn’t have a portable X-ray machine strong enough to produce high quality images of C6-C7, vs. another, less experienced vet who can take these X-rays. I emailed experienced vet to find out if they can at least get a good look at C6, since apparently C7 malformation occurs only if C6 is malformed.

Update: More experienced vet says their machine can’t detect C6 malformations.

[Mandy1]

Hi, I have an 8 yr WB that’s been experiencing intermittent front end lameness since age 4. He had a minor collateral ligament injury so we finally thought we had the root of the issue. Two more rehabs due to mysterious lameness and my vet did an X-ray of C6 and C7. She said he had a genetic anomaly and was missing spinal processors. She did not know about ECVM at the time nor did she consider this latest revelation as a factor. So I sent the information( X-rays, Mri) to dr Jose at Rood and Riddle for a second opinion. He agreed with my vet (keep looking for source of lameness ) My shoer is the one that googled it and led me to website that described ECVM and what I’ve been seeing clinically since I bought him as a 2 yr old. In my case, the vet was able to see it but she had no experience/knowledge of this condition.
I’m now looking for professionals that can advise me on the best stable conditions, nutrition, therapies, and exercise schedule to stabilize him to prolong his soundness.

[Feathered_Feet]

@Mandy1

So I sent the information( X-rays, Mri) to dr Jose at Rood and Riddle for a second opinion.

Am I understanding this correctly - did you MRI the neck? If so, that’s great that you have that record.

If I were in your shoes, I’d do two things: 1) ask the vet at R&R what they suggest, and 2) inject the neck to see if that provides relief. If not, then you have another issue beyond the neck. If so, then you know the neck is a major problem. I say this because its really easy to find one thing, think that that’s the only problem, only to later realize you have multiple issues. If you can isolate it to one thing you’ll be better off to learn how to manage it.

(good luck!)

[Starda01]

My horse had ECVM. I didn’t know anything about it until I got the radiology report from the last X-rays I had done. The radiologist didn’t call it that but noted the transposition of bone from the C-6 to the C-7, then I researched it. There are some very good groups on Facebook that offer support and knowledge. I highly recommend them. I won’t list them here, because a Google search will give a lot of sites, Facebook references, as well as webinars that are on YouTube, etc. The word is getting out, but it’s slow getting vets to recognize the condition. The Europeans are well ahead of us.