Hello All,
Thank you for all the replies! I guess what I meant was would the croup devolpe enough to be a competitive up to 3rd level? The hind end seems to really trail…reminds me of watching a reindeer run. I understand that is their general body type. What I really like is what seems to be good minded horses.
My coach thinks my guy will go at least 3rd level. Sideways is super easy for him, he’s very supple in the neck, and can extend like a beast. Collection is harder to do correctly, but we’ll get there. His mind will also allow us to get to 3rd, he loves to work, he holds fitness well, and tries really hard. I think you’ll find that mind will get you farther than a horse perfectly conformed for dressage but has a hard time with the pressure. Do you have a coach you’ll be working with?
ETA: I school him over fences and over ground poles A LOT and that seems to help him keep his hocks underneath him.
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Fizzy I will be working with a trainer on a regular schedule again. Over the last year I have stopped riding due my injury ( not horse related) work/school schedule and lastly my horse sustained a career ending injury and is now a pasture puff.But prior to that I did take one lesson a week and rode 3/4 times a week so I am hoping to resume that by summer. I like forward horses but I need a good brain and I know that can be hard to get in one horse but the DDHs I have seen seem to be good minded and forward so thats why I was kinda looking at them. Although I have only been around 3 so that may just happen to be those individuals.
Mine fits that mold too! He can seem hot, but he’s not naughty. So I consider him to have a good brain, but can he be spooky sometimes? Yes. So I guess it all depends on what you’re looking for – but he clips, ships, stands for farrier and vet, lets me pull his mane, stands to be tied, all those things that make him easy to live with! Mine is also an ADHHA registered, not KWPN, if that makes a difference.
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No. While you can teach him to bring his hind leg under himself his natural conformation will always have it trail slightly, and will make collection difficult. Difficult but not impossible. So it depends, do you like to ride horses not meant for dressage where it might be a long journey and you might never score well or get to 3rd? Do you ride well enough that a conformation not built for dressage isn’t going to be an issue for you? If you don’t ride that well, does it matter to you that you might struggle in that area? Is it about the personality of the horse or a breed you like?
There are a lot of reasons people buy horses for certain sports. Look at your reasons and your goals and see if he’s a match.
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Enjoy the ride, My long term goal is Bronze and not much further as thats where I think I can achieve and is attainable at my age and skill. I am a competent rider and I have always ridden hot forward horses and I enjoyed that. They are easier to train/ride vs a lazier type horse. However due to my own injury and sadly my age I want a horse that I can get the forward without the crazy/spookiness. I think there are many many different breeds that can get to third this was just a different breed to what I am used to so I thought it may be worth considering where I may get the best of both (brains and forward). I also need a horse that I can simple enjoy and maybe a trail ride here and there.
You can absolutely get a DHH who can do dressage very well.
However, I would stay away from any horse who trails its hind legs a lot. A DHH may have hock action which seems upward/backward yet still show ability to step under itself - that could well be worth buying. But I personally would not get a horse who doesn’t show an ability to step under, even if not always going there. If you are riding a horse correctly, it will be trying to step under - and there are all kinds of pain it can cause. A flat croup can be an indicator of inability to step under but isn’t necessarily. SI alignment and angles in all the hind leg joints are. And watching a horse in motion is how you can tell.
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I think this is so well said. I’ve known a few and those that broke out of first level were partnered with riders who had the above skill set. Another thing that is helpful to consider is your comfort with the ostrich. If they are startled most will drop their back and the head goes sky-high. For some people that can be really unsettling and far harder to calmly ride out than jigging or a lowering and snorting.
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Yeah, that’s a big NOPE! Or at least as far as correctly driven (or ridden) goes! If anything they will be stronger from driving. I often jokebutnotreally that if you want to improve your dressage horse’s strength and gaits, send him off for 90 days driving training.
The problem with a DHH (as opposed to a Dutch driving horse from the same people who bought you a KWPN or a Gelderlander) is that “DHH” is code for Amish horse with any degree of saddlebred, realDutchbutmaynotbeapproved and whatever else is handy. The saddlebred shape (flat croup, tendency to trot in inverted banana shape) and movement is usually pretty dominant in most of the ones I have seen. Many lack the elasticity and softness through the topline that you might see in the better examples of the real deal (although even the real deal has plenty of sewing machines, as it turns out extravagant gaits plus elasticity is a bit like a horse who explodes over a jump, but is soft and relaxed in between jumps… if it was common it wouldn’t cost a large fortune to but them)
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as has been noted, “dutch harness horse”, but not to be confused with the horses that come out of the KWPN. Saddlebred x dutch cross and sometimes some other stuff, it could be your best Sunday Mare of indeterminate breeding bred to an unapproved dutch stallion. I have actually seen some double registered KWPN and DHH horses recently though, so the Amish are upping their game in this area.
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DHH is a studbook under the KWPN.
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Yes, of course there is. But if you think what is commonly advertised as a DHH in the context of this thread is recognized as Tuigpaard by the KWPN, you are in for a bit of a surprise. What’s missing from that “DHH” is two A’s. As in American Dutch Harness Horse Association…
I’m not saying there aren’t some quality individuals, but this is not a studbook subject to the same standards as the “Dutch” DHH!
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It’s a fine warning to give, to verify if a horse is actually DHH or if it is ADHAA, but an actual DHH isn’t what you were saying it is.
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I’ve known several lovely pure DHH horses, and a few KWPN’s out of a mare with DHH lines. I can’t say I’ve known any that are American bred/registered. That said, the ones I’ve met were all selected and started with dressage in mind - i.e. conformation and movement that lends itself that way. With time and patience, you can change the musculature of the horse from driving towards dressage - but the bone structure underneath has to be right. Adding butt muscles to appear more round won’t change an underlying bone structure that is too flat in the croup, and where that puts the hind leg.
The natural uphill carriage and hock activity can help the horse at the middle/upper levels, if the rider is skilled enough and patient enough to work the horse through the lower levels properly. Getting the back up and swinging is hard.
I believe Lauren Spreiser had one, a big chestnut. I’m sure you can find him on her blog.
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I’m afraid I’m not understanding the point you are trying to make, because what I said (a few times) is that horses advertised/sold as “DHH” in this country are frequently NOT a horse registered with or even meeting the licensing/approval requirements of DHH/Tuigpaard book under KWPN. I didn’t make any representations as to what a Tuigpaard bred horse is, only what an ADHHA might possibly include in its pedigree…
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The challenges of dressage (whether ridden or driven) with a DHH are pretty much the same as with a Saddlebred, as the two breeds have much in common with the flat-croup conformation. This is not an insult to either breed. The Dutch actually have imported American Saddlebred stallions to influence the breed.
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The Amish are selling a lot of these horses - they may have some “real” DHH in them, along with Hackney (even more popular then Saddlebred), Saddlebred, Draft, etc. There was a time when these horses were called “Market Horses”, but now days, DHH is what sells, so that is the label used.
And yes, as several people have pointed out, they often do have some real Dutch horse in them - it isn’t uncommon to see Amish import a stallion with a flashy trot - not approved, but genuine Dutch.
You CAN make these horses into riding horses - I’ve seen several of them, and have a friend who bought a nice “Market Horse”, and she is driving and riding her. Horse has 3 good gaits, is NOT out behind, and has a fabulous brain. She is forward thinking but not at all spooky.
The horse’s basic structure is what it is - a flat croup (or severely sloped croup), a long and/or weak loin, high swan neck, those are all traits that are the horse’s conformation - you might improve muscling, but you can’t change skeletal structure, you can’t shorten a back, etc. If they horse has a bad canter - you won’t magically fix it. OTOH - if the horse has decent basic structure - you can change their way of going, you can get them to use their back better, you can train them to use themselves better. Some of the horses are actually quite nice, and some of them have good canters. You just need to know what you are doing, and don’t get swept away by a flashy trot.
The other thing to be aware of - not only are they started early (2 is very typical), they are driven on roads (paved! fast!), nutrition is not always great, etc. So you can end up with some soundness issues - including early ringbone, road founder, etc.
Go in with eyes wide open and realistic expectations…
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To go back to the original post- I think the “flat croup” is the result of BREEDING for a carriage horse conformation. NOT the result of actually pulling a carriage. Dressage training and strengthening exercises are not going to change the congenital conformation.
Some of the comments on this thread :eek: You ride the horse, not the papers. @spook1 , I have full Dutch (KWPN harness type), Saddlebreds, and crosses of those two. They are lovely kind horses that tend to be extremely people-oriented, quick learners and love attention. They will try their hearts out for you and never quit. I’ve never known one to spook and bolt - they tend to be brave and investigate. I’ve not had any that aren’t the same whether you work them daily or they’re off for a month.
We breed, raise and train them for sport disciplines, focusing on combined driving and ridden dressage. My most recent sale was an absolutely lovely KWPN harness type mare to a ridden dressage home. Amateur rider who backed her in the first week. They were happily trotting after maybe two rides and cantering after four? Granted she’d been trained in long lines for months and was more than prepared, but still. It was a non-event for a very green young horse even in a brand-new environment. Wonderful brain.
Many Dutch - harness type - are excelling in dressage. Despite what many see as undesirable croup conformation.
@DMK - the KWPN allows a horse to be registered with 50% American Saddlebred blood.
You’re absolutely correct that the ADHHA allows things like “Betsy’s unknown harness type mare” and “small driving pony stud” in, which I disagree with and that’s why I don’t feel any need to participate in their so-called “registry”. I feel it’s a fad and will go the way of the Renai “Registry”, in time.
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@asb_own_me but isn’t that a saddlebred approved for use in the KWPN, not just any ASB?
Also, I agree, many horses outperform their conformation, I have first hand experience with that, given my profile picture. But there is absolutely nothing wrong or inappropriate in pointing out that those conformation aspects have a reasonable chance of creating limitations a purpose bred horse might not struggle with.
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