Saw an interesting article on facebook today.
http://www.proequest.com/news/2013/11/14/canadian-medication-rules-create-a-different-hunter
uh huh
It’s about quality, not medication. The gap between Canadian hunters and american hunters has always been huge. They get around their medication rules just as easily as we do, but the quality isn’t there. No one as yet has found a way to medicate around that.
I thought it would have been an interesting topic to investigate, instead of writing an OPINION piece in which the author flat out tells you that the difference between Canadian and US hunters is drugging. The entire article was based on one horse show the author watched where “the horses hadn’t shown indoors lately, there was barely any space to warm-up properly, let alone lunge or stretch the horses’ legs.” Is it just me or does it seem like a stretch to immediately assume that the only reason these horses were “fresh” and “going with their heads up in the air” was because they weren’t drugged? Forgive me if my guess is lack of prep area or sylistic differences in training.
I wish the author would have spent the article expanding on her closing thoughts: “Does the dichotomy of performance between Canadian hunters and American hunters speak towards a greater issue? And when it comes right down to it, which hunter is the better athlete for our sport?”
That’s a little harsh CBoylen. I do agree with the article, and as someone who has worked in “A” barns in Ontario that also travel to HITS and WEF I can tell you that we do have the quality. I’ve groomed successful horses in both countries. We’ve never drugged any of the horses on priniciple, other then some Omega Alpha Chill, but there’s a difference between honest quiet, quiet from meds, and quiet from being tired.
I think the biggest difference between the two countries though is sheer numbers. 300 million people vs. 35 million people. 10 million horses vs. less then 1 million horses. We have the quality just not in the same quantity.
I think the article is mostly an opinion piece, for all the reasons mentioned above. A few big assumptions and few real facts.
But this bit stuck out to me (emphasis mine):
“When we go to buy horses in the States, we have to be so careful; we’re buying horses that have had their feet frozen and stuff, and you have to be seriously worried that they might come home lame because you are seeing a horse with its feet frozen and they don’t tell you. I have seen a couple people that are at [The Royal] who have had horses like that and have had to send them back because they are too lame to compete in Canada.”
What does this person mean by a horse having its “feet frozen?” I can think of several things this might refer to, but I’ve never heard the term before. Anyone know?
The part that got me thinking was the not even Canadians want to buy horses from us. They’d rather import from Europe as well - and not just because of the quality but due to the soundness issues they run into from Americans.
I think it’s a llittle true that the rest of the world sees us as using our horses as pin cushions because of our lax drug policies. Even if that’s not the truth, we definitely have a reputation.
[QUOTE=GoodTimes;7262114]
I think the biggest difference between the two countries though is sheer numbers. 300 million people vs. 35 million people. 10 million horses vs. less then 1 million horses. We have the quality just not in the same quantity.[/QUOTE]
This. Coupled with the fact that Canada has a very separated population. We are a country with the same number of people as California with only really 2 regions with enough concentration to have a horse market. There’s no way for us to compete in our own country for 4-6 months a year.
I also think hunters just aren’t as big here. They are much more of a stepping stone in my zone than what it feels like in the states so there isn’t such a big market for hunters.
[QUOTE=lockedoutalter;7262122]
The part that got me thinking was the not even Canadians want to buy horses from us. They’d rather import from Europe as well - and not just because of the quality but due to the soundness issues they run into from Americans.
I think it’s a llittle true that the rest of the world sees us as using our horses as pin cushions because of our lax drug policies. Even if that’s not the truth, we definitely have a reputation.[/QUOTE]
It used to be that Americans didn’t want to buy from Canada. In the late 90s there was a big trend up there to put horses on Prozac, and a lot of big American trainers got burned badly. No matter which side of the border you’re on it’s a big assumption to paint the entire other side with the same brush.
And I did not intend to be harsh. My family is Canadian. My cousins show in both countries. I have taken care of a lot of Canadian horses who come to WEF and KY, and follow the business up there enough to see what the ones that win up north look like and what they do when they get sold south or come here to show. The hunter industry up there does not support a depth of quality. I know what they show on in Canada and what the same ones show on here. It’s not the difference. They swap the ACTH for the Dex when they cross the border and maybe add some Robaxin, which is no wonder drug. Everything else stays the same.
I have said here many times in the past that I do “self care” at A shows and never seen horses being drugged. I’ve been laughed at and called naive for saying so. I’ve arrived at a show late at night for night check and very, very early in the morning when the braiders are still around and never seen it. Not once.
This article gives me hope that I am not simply naive. Our drugging rules are more strict. Horses do get tested at shows. Mine has. When the author says Canadian medication regulations are more strict than US, it’s 100% true.
We do have quality horses but I agree with a comment above that we do not have the numbers. I think that makes the stakes even higher when talking about drugging and getting caught.
Canadians don’t buy American horses. Americans do buy a lot of Canadian horses. We’re about to see the influx of American trainers bringing their students to look at horses as we see every single year at this time.
I thought the author had a good point about the day to day riding… if it has to be drugged to be rideable in the heat, how is it going to go north of the border in January…?
Could you elaborate a little bit? I’m genuinely curious. I’ve been quite impressed with the hunter industry up here lately, I think they’ve made great improvements across the board in the last decade.
Introducing qualifying classes for the 3 yo cup classes at RAWF is an incentive for breeders to up their game. The Ultimate Hunter Championship has been great for the 4-7 yos. And Canadian Hunter Derby series has been lovely to watch all year culminating in the championships at the Royal.
In the past it seemed like our really nice young horses always sold at WEF or HITS, but now I’ve noticed pros and ammies holding onto their horses longer. Maybe it’s the market, but I think it’s because the hunters are getting more recognition and more prize money now.
The bit about Canadians not buying horses from the states because of soundness issues? I don’t agree. Last year our clients sold some horses at HITS and bought some horses at HITS, all were vetted, no problems on either end. But a shopping trip to the states for horses? That’s rare. If you’re already down there showing then possibly. The American horses are already being developed for the hunter ring the same as in Canada. If you’ve got the money to spend on a young horse the best bang for your buck will still be in Europe if you can’t find one close to home.
And I do think that our drug rules are more strict and they’re enforced. There was a steward at each and every horse show (hunter/jumper) I was at this summer pulling horses for testing, a friend of mine events and one of her horses was tested as well. I can only recall seeing a steward grab a horse for testing in the states once while I’ve been there. That could be a total coincidence, but for me personally, if I was going to go the med route I’d be more likely to try it while I was down south.
I can relay one experience that a friend had with leasing a hunter from the US. It was from a relatively BNT and they disclosed to the lessee that the horse showed on Dex in the US. Once up in Canada, under a well known trainer, the horse slowly got worse and worse (spooking-wise). The rider was a good rider with lots of show experience under her belt and multiple wins at the Royal Winter Fair. Unfortunately, they had to send the horse back mid-season because the horse was becoming dangerously spooky (bolting). They attributed the spookiness to the horse’s withdrawals from the Dex. Knowing the trainer and the rider, I do not attribute the spookiness to their training program.
CBoylen I have always respected your opinion on these boards as far as the hunter scene is concerned but to blatantly state that the quality of the Canadian hunters vs American hunters is not there is a slap in the face to those of us that breed and show our wonderful Canadian hunters. And arguably there is a huge reason that many US trainers prefer to buy Canadian horses. We CAN’T show on many of the drugs that the American’s seem to think is routine business when showing hunters. And many of us would not do so regardless. It’s cheating plain and simple. I think the article is bang on! And kudo’s to the author. Please don’t ever tell me American hunters are better then Canadian hunters. Quality is quality. Period. Our Canadian horses seem to do just fine in good company in Florida and California and everywhere in between.
Making lofty claims that Canadian hunters do not match up to their American counterparts is not only rude, but inaccurate. “GoodTimes” post was spot on. Before you try to pick the Canadian hunter apart, I encourage you to educate yourself on our fantastic showing, breeding and sportsmanship.
[QUOTE=Ibex;7262229]
I thought the author had a good point about the day to day riding… if it has to be drugged to be rideable in the heat, how is it going to go north of the border in January…?[/QUOTE]
Do you really think there is a widespread use of drugs for day to day riding?
Also, please note that “heat” is relative. People in Seattle think 60 degrees is shorts weather and I’m bundled up in a parka at that same tempature, I’m sure the horses feel similarly. when I take my horses that are used to 65-70 degree temps and go to a show where it is a 100 degrees, they melt. When I take them to 30 degrees, they get sassy…but that’s only because it’s not what they rae used to. Once they get used to it, they are who they are based on their personality and the feed, exercise and turnout programs they are on. They acclimate.
I really didn’t like that part of the article at all. Horses are different with different owners/programs for so very many reasons that boiling it down to “drugs” is really short-sighted and kind of blame-shifting. Unless someone is exactly replicating a program, including riding style of the primary riders, and the only things different are the medications used, any changes are just speculation based.
Well, having walked into a barn where they were acing a horse for day to day riding, I’d say “yes”. And this was someone who shows on both sides of the border, and has more success south of it than north.
I’ve also seen the results of a hunter brought north who went through “detox”. It wasn’t pretty. I’ve heard the jokes around here as well about “well, we could drug it. Or you know, we could actually train it”…
[QUOTE=cherham;7262280]
CBoylen I have always respected your opinion on these boards as far as the hunter scene is concerned but to blatantly state that the quality of the Canadian hunters vs American hunters is not there is a slap in the face to those of us that breed and show our wonderful Canadian hunters. And arguably there is a huge reason that many US trainers prefer to buy Canadian horses. We CAN’T show on many of the drugs that the American’s seem to think is routine business when showing hunters. And many of us would not do so regardless. It’s cheating plain and simple. I think the article is bang on! And kudo’s to the author. Please don’t ever tell me American hunters are better then Canadian hunters. Quality is quality. Period. Our Canadian horses seem to do just fine in good company in Florida and California and everywhere in between.[/QUOTE]
I certainly don’t intend to offend you. For the reasons others have stated, the Canadian hunter industry really cannot sustain the depth of quality that the US can. And it doesn’t. That’s being realistic.
Many trainers do shop in Canada. The horses there are in less demand by the home industry and cheaper. That’s realistic. They are not sounder or less medicated because they have two fewer choices of NSAID and can’t use Robaxin. ACTH is no better (worse?) than Dex. No one is thinking they are buying organic horses. Canadian sellers are not as a whole more honest or more stupid than US sellers. And the rules are only slightly different.
And the author said this, for which you give her kudos:
[I]It was not as beautiful and effortless as the hunters at big shows in the United States. These horses and ponies generally would not be rewarded by judges at U.S. Indoors. The huge strided, barely moving, cresty necks in a frame that Americans have come to associate with hunters were not to be seen in Toronto.
[/I]As an aside, now that I’ve refreshed my memory on the exact differences in rules, can anyone point out where the Ketophen guidelines are? Why aren’t they included with the Bute/banamine guidelines after it says it’s permitted?
The very thing people here talk about when reminiscing about days gone by and how wonderful everything was. And how crap your hunters are now. 
[QUOTE=gumshoe;7262352]
The very thing people here talk about when reminiscing about days gone by and how wonderful everything was. And how crap your hunters are now. ;)[/QUOTE]Fantastic. Out of nowhere, this thread has discovered a solution to the debate that has confounded the boards since their creation. Those people need to move to Canada.
