Dudley, CHS’s credentials may not be as lofty as GM’s, but they are nothing to sneeze at either. And, I don’t think it requires excessive credentials for someone to identify a problem worth addressing. I think everyone’s time would be better spent at this point in tackling this issue rather than bashing CHS.
[QUOTE=suzy;7103707]
CHS has fired up a discussion which is valuable. I don’t think it’s her job necessarily to find the solution. However, she has clearly identified a need, and that’s the first step toward finding a solution. If she wants to make suggestions to USDF/USEF or organize like-minded trainers to get on board with some sort of program to address the issues we’ve been discussing, that’s great. In my post above, I made a few suggestions on how to solve the problem. Perhaps everyone could stop gawking at the train wreck—yea, I appreciate how hard that is because it really IS fun!!!—and put their prodigious brain power and energy into how they envision a “Training the Trainers” program might look. Organize these ideas and submit them to our national organizations so that they have a framework from which to develop something.[/QUOTE]
Except that need has been identified many, many, many times before. And the discussion about how to solve the problem has come up really only as an aside to a discussion about CHS’s disgraceful public disrespect to those who participate in her clinics. Whether by showing up and paying hundreds of dollars for the clinic they “honor” her enough. :rolleyes:
THAT’s what we have been discussing from the beginning. Not what a great rider or teacher she is in person (she may be.) Not whether there needs to be system of training in the USA. (There does.) But merely using her blog as bully pulpit to shame low level riders who show up at her clinics, and, apparently for trainers, not showing up at them. THAT seems to be her real problem, and she doesn’t propose any solution for that either. (Like change the eligibility requirements, like call her clinics “train the trainers” clinics, grant scholarships or lower her fee for worthy students without economic means, etc.)
Again, that’s why I called it a petulant rant. And, if someone blogs something like that, then we are entitled to the “fun” as you called it of calling her out on the fact that she sounds like a spoiled brat who is not getting her way…
[QUOTE=suzy;7103726]
Dudley, CHS’s credentials may not be as lofty as GM’s, but they are nothing to sneeze at either. And, I don’t think it requires excessive credentials for someone to identify a problem worth addressing. I think everyone’s time would be better spent at this point in tackling this issue rather than bashing CHS.[/QUOTE]
I dont disagree.
I am trying to point out that GM and CHS have very different backgrounds and IMO in very different sports. I dont think comparing GM’s student base is relevant.
Plus GM is known for his tough teaching demeanor, I doubt there is a hunter rider alive that isn’t aware of that!!!
The only reason I can see for a green rider to clinic with Haddad is if the organizer was needing more rides to fill the clinic. But really, she doesn’t have a shining resume, not like MacDonald and Peters do.
Identifying the need is not enough, it has to be addressed head on and a solution found. I don’t see anyone offering solutions, just a lot of people who have decided to feel insulted by her blog. We will have to agree to disagree regarding the blog being a “petulant rant.” I see it as a call to attention.
Oops, edited to say this is in response to EH
[QUOTE=Velvet;7103021]
I totally appreciate her sentiment, but the reality is that it’s almost impossible to do. I’d love to see this happen, but I know what it takes to fill a clinic. I know the politics and the cost. I know that you have to take anyone who is willing to pony up the money. You need to build a group of repeat customers. Too many pros do NOT HAVE THE MONEY. It’s all about living hand to mouth and then hoping to find a sponsor. Your students have money and pay you, but when very BNT comes to town, they have the cash in hand and while some will pay your way, many just want their own ride.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, then, the issue is with the trainers’ marketing. It couldn’t happen often, and it would have to be up front in the board/training contract, but when the chance to ride with someone of international caliber comes along, the clients pay for the trainer participates in clinic. The marketing to the clients (explained in person as well as in the boarding/training contract) would be along the lines of “There is always more to learn - or a different way to approach and solve a problem. I don’t ‘know it all’. Therefore, when someone I respect, whom I feel will make a positive impact in my ability to do my job FOR YOU better, is in the area to give a clinic, I will participate in the clinic. The entire cost of the clinic will be divided equally among each client (whether boarding/training or ship in for lessons), because you all will benefit from the new things I will learn.”
I don’t think this would fly for a clinic a month, but one or two perhaps a year?
Of course, trainer must be willing to admit s/he doesn’t know everything. So many don’t want their clients to know this.
Here’s part of a solution-don’t make people feel small for their training holes.
How about this -instead of looking at the whole insurmountable problem, make an impression on that one person in your ring who can’t hold her reins right. There, one more person on the right path to good equitation.
Stop comparing us to the Europe and finding us lacking. We’re who we are -deal with us. Different challenges, different demographics, different attitudes. Just different, not worse.
Paula
ccoronios, I would not train with a trainer that expected me to pony up for their education. They need to have those costs already built into their fees.
[QUOTE=suzy;7103726]
Dudley, CHS’s credentials may not be as lofty as GM’s, but they are nothing to sneeze at either. And, I don’t think it requires excessive credentials for someone to identify a problem worth addressing. I think everyone’s time would be better spent at this point in tackling this issue rather than bashing CHS.[/QUOTE]
I don’t disagree.
My point is that GM and CHS have very different resume’s ( and IMO in very different sports). I do not think that GM is relevant to this discussion
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;7103341]
I took it to mean that the trainers aren’t good enough to really teach the basics to their students and that they watch Haddad with the intent of mimmicking her later while teaching their students, but that the trainers still don’t really understand the basics well enough to get it across to others (their students).[/QUOTE]
This, to me, is where the problem of a plethora of ‘dressage trainers’ in this country started. Someone with little knowledge watches GP and figures out a way to make their horse look like that. They see the frame and with the right equipment, can mimic that frame. They see the ‘tricks’ - and with enough experimentation can mimic those ‘tricks’. They do not live in a dressage mecca, so they market their new-found, homegrown expertise to the locals who are beyond impressed. And the downward spiral begins.
Unfortunately, there seems to be no end of clients in all disciplines who want to win, have the money to buy [what was when they bought it] a good horse, and the money to toss at someone who talks the talk but whose background and experience they haven’t researched.
[QUOTE=suzy;7103745]
Identifying the need is not enough, it has to be addressed head on and a solution found. I don’t see anyone offering solutions, just a lot of people who have decided to feel insulted by her blog. We will have to agree to disagree regarding the blog being a “petulant rant.” I see it as a call to attention.
Oops, edited to say this is in response to EH[/QUOTE]
The need has been identified. Over and over and over again. And as you say, “it is not CHS’s job to provide a solution.” Well, neither is it ours. And neither is it her job to point out the obvious.
Honor and respect go both ways, btw.
[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;7103787]
The need has been identified. Over and over and over again. And as you say, “it is not CHS’s job to provide a solution.” Well, neither is it ours. And neither is it her job to point out the obvious.
Honor and respect go both ways, btw.[/QUOTE]
Okay, then whose job is it to fix the problem? Problems (rarely) self fix. 
I understand her point completely, and agree that there is a problem in the US with “trainers” being unable to teach correct basics…
but holy gawd she is so offensive. A little humility goes a long way. Sh*t, I no longer have any interest in spending my professional dollars hauling my FEI horse to her clinic.
Bleck. I’ve worked with exceptional trainers with ego mania before… it gets really old, no matter how good the instruction is.
God will fix it. Let us all pray.
He does indeed, if you read my earlier post. And graciously and kindly. Which doesn’t mean he’s all “rainbows and unicorns,” but he IS a TEACHER and doesn’t seem to mind teaching beginners, in my experienece.
i dont really want to jump into the fray - but i do want to point out: CH is coming from a different culture - and a lot of what she is saying shows this difference.
Also, I pretty much agree with CH right down the line… to give you an example: I have ridden most of my life - so maybe 40 years? I have found very FEW trainers who can actually teach. and the amount of $$$$$$$$$$$$$ that i have wasted over this time period is mind numbing.
but one comment: for those trainers saying that they need to see their students ride in a BNT clinic so they can learn to teach them : are these trainers picking up the tab for their education? probably no. which also points to how bad our “system” is set up. it the poor lower level pleb that will foot the bill…
I am hoping to be riding for another 20+ years - here is hoping i can find a trainer that can actually teach and who actually knows enough to teach me something (and i am not that educated so it ought to be pretty easy…not!)
>off soapbox<
[QUOTE=paulaedwina;7103758]
Here’s part of a solution-don’t make people feel small for their training holes.
Stop comparing us to the Europe and finding us lacking. We’re who we are -deal with us. Different challenges, different demographics, different attitudes. Just different, not worse.
Paula[/QUOTE]
CHS isn’t trying to make anyone feel small. And, as Eleanor Roosevelt said, “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Regarding comparing us to Europe, you have to understand that CHS is looking at the much bigger picture—our ability to compete successfully on the international stage. If we don’t scrutinize and compare ourselves to the best, how can we improve? Yes, our challenges are different because of the size of our country, and this is unarguably a daunting challenge for us. However, if our attitudes really are different, then we really may need to rethink that.
For people content to ride in their own backyards, and this is not a criticism, your sentiment is fine. For those who want our country to do well at WEG, Olympics, etc. or who want to ride in those venues, we have to look abroad to see why Germany, Denmark, UK, etc. are doing so well and model ourselves after them where we can and find alternative solutions where we can’t—specifically in our problem with people being so spread out in this country.
Or we can just have sponsors buy riders already made up Grand Prix horses which is the case with several of the top U.S. riders. I think CH is wanting to make a country of riders that can train a horse all the way to GP, I don’t think that is the case now.
I’m also a lower level rider with an unconventional horse and its articles like this that make Dressage seem snobbish, judgemental and unobtainable. The best trainers are constantly learning and want everyone to learn. I audit sometimes and I learn a lot from those lower level rides. If classes at shows had no lower level riders there wouldnt be a show. If I could afford to clinic and had the time and money to train more I would do it in a heartbeat. I agree if Catherine only wants to teach pros or promising prospects she should just say so and only do those clinics. If shes concerned about pros getting a chance to ride she could always add an extra day and reduce her fee so they have the opportunities.
And to the L judge If you’re an L then you’re judging schooling shows which is where people go to learn, have fun and improve. If someone at intro or training has less than perfect geometry then let them know on their test. It takes a lot for some AA’s to put themselves out there and be judged. I applaud people who are going for it. Everyone has to start somewhere. Not everyone has a full size dressage arena or can ride as much as they want due to families jobs ect…
I was thinking about this thread all night and a few things are really sticking with me:
- The concept that students should fund a trainer’s education is offensive to me (exception: trainer is riding a client horse). I fund my own professional education, trainers need to do the same.
- The arrogance of the original blog article is truly offensive. The points are valid, but treating us AAs (who largely fund the sport) like we are lazy and uneducated is offensive.
- There are very few programs provided for AAs through GMOs and USDF. Jrs and Pros have a number of programs available. Yet we fund the bulk of the sport.
- I am lucky enough to have ridden in clinics with a number of BNTs over the years - including Debbie McDonald, Anne Gribbons - I could go on. None of them were so arrogant as to say that I was disrespectful for showing up and riding with them. We are lucky that not all BNTs have this attitude. I certainly understand the point that someone needs to have a basic education and put in their time learning to ride, but I keep wondering exactly how we are to do that if it offends a trainer to teach us?
