Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

I know it might feel like a pissing contest, and I understand your contempt for other’s perspectives. I just don’t think it’s possible to get Fappani levels of performance without being a)very selective of the bloodlines and brains that can tolerate such harsh training b) doing whatever is necessary to create such dramatic spins, stops, and reinbacks. I have no particular animus toward AF. I enjoy his podcasts, appreciate his work ethic, and I just take him at his word that he rides his horses pretty hard.

Who would you say is a rock solid, ethical reining horse trainer at the top of the sport today? With all due respect, and with regard for your experience, who is doing it well?

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The name escapes me at the moment, but IIRC, there was a famous woman “circus” or “trick” rider who used to do exhibtions where she rode with thread reins.

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I’ve never seen this type of riding before. The head/neck carriage looks really odd to my eye.

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I’m confused, Djones. You called me (and I presume Alterration) on the carpet for arguing saddleseat vs. dressage, so I let it go. Now you are arguing with Knight’s Mom about reining.

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I suppose I gave in to the trend, as my input didn’t stop anyone :upside_down_face:

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And for the record that wasn’t what I was arguing. Dressage is fantastic. I DO take dressage lessons on my saddlebred, and I am friends with a large number of the community who do BOTH saddleseat AND dressage (which, contrary to popular belief, is possible).

There were some other posters who brought up what their saddleseat trainers had taught them in terms of the weight in the reins, before another poster chose to attack saddleseat as a discipline. That’s where I came in.

I was certainly not arguing that it was better. Only different.

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Thank you. I do too but couldn’t for the life of me remember the spelling. That’s him!

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I would disagree, it can be accomplished through training. Warwick Schiller talks about riding at an exhibition with someone ( I forgot who), and they planned to give the dressage horse his head during a canter pirouette. The horse dropped down and began spinning pretty fast.

He has done that a couple of times with dressage horses. He has plenty of videos of how to teach the spin if you want to sign up for the free week trial and see for yourself.

That said, I remember the reining demo tent at WEG KY. The horse was being ridden in a tight rolkur with his long shanked bit. Turned me right off.

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I was going to ask if Warwick was doing it. I know that he did at least at one point compete in reining and he is as kind and empathetic a trainer as I can imagine (and yes, even a little woo woo for me, but I’m adapting to his new style). Does his wife still compete?

That’s what I saw in the video above and I have the same reaction.

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I am explicitly asking about beating the likes of Andrea Fappani toe to toe.

I am not asking how to teach a horse to spin.

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I haven’t kept up with reining in years, but if I was getting into it Frappani would not be my choice, though if I had an insane amount of money I’d buy that beautiful horse he was riding in that video and give it to someone who could make it happy again.

I’ve watched a few rides by Tom McCutcheon and like the way his horses go a lot better. Softer and happier looking. His son Cade is also a trainer and his wife Mandy, is a top non-pro. I’m having a heck of a time finding a video of a whole run, since he also has a youtube channel with training advice.

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I think that as Warwick has changed in how he works with horses, his desire to compete in reining has waned, as, I believe, has his wife’s desire to compete. My conclusion, as one of Catherine Haddad’s rabid garden snails, was that he had a growing unease with how a reining horse is produced.

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I haven’t forgotten Craig Johnson’s “retirement” post.

Retirement??
I was asked the other day at an NRHA event by one of the other million dollar riders if I had retired. Umm. No. But then I wondered what made him think I had. Maybe it’s because I haven’t shown at a major event reining in a couple of years. Perhaps it’s because after 40 years of showing horses competitively, I don’t necessarily feel the burning desire inside that makes me do whatever it takes to be sure I have a good one. After having won so much, I’m not really interested in being another entry. Maybe it’s because the perception is that unless you’re showing at all the major events; that a person must have retired. Even if the showing was just a necessary evil to what was fun, the creation. Maybe it’s because I’ve developed a deeper and more important connection with horses that is far more valuable than another buckle. Maybe it’s because I feel so committed to going to the next level,. Teaching others through clinics, lessons coaching, and events. Maybe it’s because I now travel so much that it’s not fair to the horses to be crammed with just a few rides a week. Maybe it takes me longer. Maybe it always should have. Maybe it’s because I’ve been having so much fun simply putting foundations on horses. Maybe it’s because I’ve added ranch, trail training and other disciplines to the horses and am inspired by the additional challenges they present. Maybe it’s because I’m no longer willing to do the things I use to, and things I’ve seen, in order to make a horse do what it takes. Maybe I’m not interested until I find a better way. Maybe I’m home experimenting with a better way. Maybe I think we should take longer, wait on horses, and create something that is broke, sound, and happy for years. Maybe I have enough buckles and would rather coach others into getting their own. Maybe I’m not as selfish as I use to be. Maybe I’ve decided it’s more about the horse and what it wants to be rather than what I need it to be. Maybe I like selling horses I’ve raised and trained to others who want to go be competitive. Maybe I like staying home more as I get older. Maybe other things got more important. But I have never retired, nor will I ever. It seems that’s not really an option for a horse trainer that loves horses. Also, there isn’t a retirement plan. It’s either quit and work at Walmart or ride and teach till they take your boots off. I don’t like Walmart. I’ve put in nearly 50 years to this point so I’m obviously not quitting. However, there is a downside to the perception of being retired. It’s really hard to get horses to train if you’re not out competing. It seems most people assume unless you’re showing you’re not training. In reality it’s two very separate things. I’m training better than I ever have and helping so many more people. My horses are better broke than they’ve ever been and that’s good enough for me. I do love the training. I love going to ranch shows and teaching horses to do multiple things. I like winning championships in new challenges that inspire me. Just don’t ever think that I’ve retired from reining. Don’t make the mistake of thinking I no longer know how to train one. Don’t get caught thinking I forgot how to train a horse to circle, stop, and spin. Because someday you may get caught with your pants down. If the right amazing horse that could win it all goes through my barn again, don’t underestimate me. I will come take your money like I have before, but I’ll do it the right way. It’ll be fun. If not, I’ll be home riding, coaching someone else, or doing a clinic for those who want to know what I’ve not yet forgotten. No I haven’t retired, I have evolved.

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With dressage under attack, I’m just wondering if the other disciplines are going to get any attention as well? I just watched a video of a rider starfishing a barrel horse, spurring the absolute sh!t out of the horse and beating the horse with a whip through out 90 percent of the run with everyone in the stands cheering. Charlotte whipped the horse to elevate the legs - the barrel rider beats the horse to go faster, much like racing. Charlotte’s career is over while barrel racers with keep on truckin.’ It’s a double standard. Neither are ok. I also just watched a saddle seat warmup in a large competition arena with someone using a draw rein as the sole rein with the horse close to nose to chest. People in the comments are gushing - “oh, so nice.” People lose their minds when this even temporarily happens in dressage. Neither are ok. Also, are there other disciplines where people casually insult all those who participate in the discipline by calling them things like dressage snob? If horse welfare truly is the concern, it seems that the lens should certainly broaden.

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I’m going to start this post again because I’m not really sure I had your point last time.

Regarding “dressage snob” - yes. Hunter princess, Horse flippers, Buckle Bunnies, Rope Twirlers and other terms are common…and you yourself used the term starfishing so you’re not unaware of what people sling at each other. All disciplines are absolutely brutal to each other and quite frankly I find it irritating.

I actually used it as a dressage rider to another dressage rider who was disparaging other disciplines out of hand, but I realize now that you were probably speaking more broadly.

Regarding dressage under the microscope and Charlotte in particular I truly do think it is because dressage riders have acted as though we held the gold standard for horse welfare, and now we’re finding that the emperor has no clothes and that is making the rest of the equine world hold a grand old microscope on dressage with more than a little schaudenfruede. We earned it, by telling everyone they were doing it wrong ™

Regarding other disciplines though, we just spent the last 10 posts discussing reining practices and just about every single post discussing abuse in dressage turns into “other disciplines are worse” and I wonder why that is…seems like we should clean up our own house and leave others to their own business. We should police our own - it never works out to police others, as we are seeing now.

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That’s quite a compliment. I’ve always enjoyed watching saddle seat eq classes because the riders
are able to keep their hands quiet while maintaining nearly perfect posture and position while riding in a flat saddle (no thigh blocks, or knee rolls), with a double bridle on a horse with a lot of action. And they look elegant while they’re dong all of that !.

Back in the '70’s when many riders rode and competed in more than one discipline, I showed western horses but my trainer gave us saddle seat lessons on a retired 5 gaited horse. She wanted us to learn to have independent aids, to sit up, and sit still. It worked, and it was fun, too.

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I do not currently following reining to know who the good ones are.

Back in the day the good ones could sometimes be found at Willowbrook in PA. There was one guy who was missing a finger who had a decent reputation.

I do know the current trends in Western events and even if a sport is rough on horses now, it’s going to morph into a better way. I suspect NRHA will be slower to morph, but morph it will.

The majority of equestrians are female and aging and they have disposable income and are tired of watching horses get beat up.

The anti cruelty movement in Western is huge and I liken it to a mostly silent rebellion.

I assure you I am also qualified to judge what’s going on. Because I judge it.

There is a guy in Pennsylvania who trains without force that I’ve seen. I did pop up at one of his shows to secretly watch him just like I did with Parra. He is a winning trainer. Not sure if he competes NRHA or just AQHA reining.

He was featured in a blog once titled The Man Who Rode With Grace.

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I’m confused by this: are you saying you’re an nrha judge? You don’t currently show reiners or follow reining so you don’t know who is whom. Uh.ok.

That someone sometime in the past somewhere in PN did it well isn’t exactly inspiring confidence in how good it will be in the future, because it’s not relevant.

I’ll just leave you to it since this is circling the drain faster than Fappani in the middle of the show pen lol

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Seeing as how NRHA just approved drug use and also dropped out of any attempts of a
a larger governing body (FEI oversight)…

It ain’t going away.

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