Cheap ribbons and empty packets – Do events appreciate the clientele?

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8221841]
It’s silly to vilify the other side, liking ribbons/extras is not indicative of caring only about placings, any more than disliking ribbons is about being a heartless competitor just looking to move up fast.

As many have said, I’m sure any event would welcome efforts to solicit better prizes/sponsorships, but I can’t believe we are insulting each other and back to the “us/them” fight over ribbons.[/QUOTE]

I worry less about us insulting each other than it sounding like we think that those who run the events either a) lazy or b) don’t care or c) are laughing all the way to the bank.

[HiJumpGrrl]

[QUOTE=lecoeurtriste;8221832]
We used to give a prize for the rider with the highest score after dressage and cross country (when you earned penalties for falling off versus an E, scores could be pretty high!)…we’d give it out at the competitors’ party the night before stadium, and the winner was usually grinning ear-to-ear to know that even though it wasn’t their weekend, their participation was still appreciated.[/QUOTE]

I won that award at one of those events once… I think my score was >150. A fall and 2 stops! WOOT! I still use the grooming tote I won.

[redalter]

[QUOTE=KayBee;8221869]
I worry less about us insulting each other than it sounding like we think that those who run the events either a) lazy or b) don’t care or c) are laughing all the way to the bank.[/QUOTE]

This. Though I do worry about us taking sides, too.

We are so very lucky/blessed, whatever to be able to participate in our sport, and I have always felt proud to be part of a group of what I think are the most awesome horsepeople!

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=SevenDogs;8221766]
If you truly have something that you think can improve an event with very little money, I have never seen an organizer that is not willing to listen to feedback

That is NOT the same thing as coming onto a message board and whining about "cheap ribbons, etc. In my opinion that just makes you seem immature and whiney[/QUOTE]

A thread was started to discuss an article that was posted on social media. Admitting that you agree with certain things that the author said doesn’t necessarily make a person “immature and whiney.”

[Beam_Me_Up]

[QUOTE=KayBee;8221869]
I worry less about us insulting each other than it sounding like we think that those who run the events either a) lazy or b) don’t care or c) are laughing all the way to the bank.[/QUOTE]

Good point–I agree. I hope nobody feels that way but it does give the impression.

[JP60]

Discussions like this are valuable for it starts to shine a light, bring out concerns, ideas, feelings that either start to show whether there is an issue or not. My own personal view is that there is the beginnings of one.

Let’s look at this at two levels. The first is the individual Event. An Established organizer is both pressured by rising costs, but also seeing a drop off in numbers. Now the “destination” Events don’t have this worry so what we are really focusing on are the family/local/non-destination venues. To an organizer, they need bodies, at least 153 according to USEA, but they need people. Forget about the past for a moment, how do you get people to keep coming back? The simple answer is to make the feel good about what they just spent. That the customer gets an ROI and it does not mean hand holding the E or the bad score or the dropped rail rider, but it is rewarding the effort of the those the got great scores. It is rewarding those that showed up.

This is not about the motivation of why someone puts on a show. Do we ask the restaurant owner why he wants to serve people food? No. We do ask him/her to serve it well and to make us, the customer, feel special. Folks here have already posted ways to have fun outside of Eventing shows so clearly there is competition for those lower level (never to go above T) dollars. As a customer, I am not concerned about why you put on a show, but I am concerned as to how I feel when I plunk 200+ for an entry fee along with my expenses.

As a customer our job is to not act like jerks and baffoons when we go to compete. Thank the volunteers (I do), clean up after ones self, don’t abuse the property. But we are going to assess how that owner treated us and this is the root of the question.

What if we stop giving out any ribbon? Just get a score and go home. Would that solve the problem? I’m guessing not by many of the posts and while some go just for the experience, many go because it is a competition, because they want that best score possible and some indication of that effort when they go home. Is a $5 ribbon to much to ask given that?

the second level is looking at the sport as a whole. What is the base of this sport today? How can this sport grow and survive in a world that has so many other opportunities for peoples dollars and attention, even in the horse world. Until things drastically change, those at the top need new blood. Kids? sure, but Ammie adults as well. Folks pushing horses through the pipeline make up a part of this sport, but the bulk is made up of young kids paid for by parents and Adult Ammies either just starting out (me) or coming from elsewhere (H/J maybe) or coming back after decades. You want those people to stay for they pay for those ULR/T opportunities. They make this sport happen. Boyd, Phillip, Sinead…they are only the tip of the iceberg and as a whole, the sport needs to figure out a way to not just keep, but encourage the LOWERS to not just stay, but pay.

Now if that takes better ribbons, parties, acknowledgements then it is a small price to keep this current Eventing model alive.

Contrary to some view, I am not a ribbon grabber. I do not ride my horse for a ribbon, but when I can ride well enough that I place better then others in a class, then yes, I’d like a worthy acknowledgement of that effort, something more then a score on a spreadsheet. Yet if I don’t reach those heights, then just feeling appreciated for coming is nice too.

Going to a horse trial is about competition, not just romping around and that is the force behind this whole discussion. It is or should also be a social event and this is where I don’t see much effort to try and bind folks together. We talk about community, but the question is, how can we really make that community last and embrace others.

[PaintedHunter]

I recently won my first ribbon at BN. Fourth. It was a schooling CT- a small show. That ribbon will mean more to me than anything I will ever receive at future shows, because it was such a long time in the making. I outright CRIED, and the people in the office were genuinely happy for me and congratulatory for this weenie adult.

So the ribbons themselves don’t mean something, but the blood, sweat and tears (and sometimes all the drinks…) behind them do. No one should ever be belittled for being proud of a ribbon or valuing receiving them at shows.

For me, I care about events where staff, volunteers and organizers don’t bark at you, but rather contribute to the spirit of camaraderie that historically IS eventing. I think that is where a lot of people are coming from in the “feeling valued and appreciated part.” I think that the ribbon, freebies part etc. is just a symbol of that.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=JP60;8222092]
This is not about the motivation of why someone puts on a show. Do we ask the restaurant owner why he wants to serve people food? No. We do ask him/her to serve it well and to make us, the customer, feel special. Folks here have already posted ways to have fun outside of Eventing shows so clearly there is competition for those lower level (never to go above T) dollars. As a customer, I am not concerned about why you put on a show, but I am concerned as to how I feel when I plunk 200+ for an entry fee along with my expenses.[/QUOTE]

The restaurant owner is in it, ultimately, to make a living. S/he, hopefully, is doing it because a) it’s profitable and b) they’re good at it and c) it’s something they enjoy doing. S/he, unlike an event organizer, can’t run a business to break even; there’s the added worries of taxes, overhead, wages/salaries, healthcare, insurance, plus, y’know making enough to live on and socking away enough to buy a house and put the kids through college or whatever.

Largely, I’d imagine, the people who volunteer to organize events do so because the love/want to contribute to/support the sport. (Either that, or someone begged them and they found out that it was something they could do and do well, and it became a satisfying enterprise.) Remember, there is no bank or large corporation willing to throw their name on the equivalent of an eventing stadium. There is no fan base willing to spend 100s on tickets, and 100s, or even 1,000s on related merchandise. Events are hugely, hugely, based on good will. At the upper levels, who knows… maybe there’s prestige to being the organizer of Rolex. God knows it’s something that should be impressive if it appears on a resume.

But, please, let’s not compare eventing, especially those events at the lower levels, to a for-profit model, of, well, anything. We share much more in common with sports like triathlons and bike races that, too, depend largely on volunteerism to exist. And I think it’s really dangerous to think of it as a service. A service implies that there’s an exchange and the benefit is on both sides. I’m really not sure what the “benefit” is to the organizer and the volunteer other than the satisfaction of pulling off a huge undertaking (and as mentioned, contributing to the health of the sport).

Would a tote bag or a bag of treats or a baseball cap be nice? Sure. But more important to me is a well organized, safe event and happy, friendly, volunteers. From the other end of the spectrum, am I going to whine because the volunteer coordinator failed to provide a gluten-free packed lunch. No, because I know that simplicity is key and the budget is really turkey on white. So, I’ll bring along something i know I can eat. I just want the competitors to be friendly (don’t even care about explicitly appreciative), just don’t snark at me because I’m not quite sure what to do given I’ve jump-judged all of once previously. ::ahem::

[SevenDogs]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8221786]

I am an amateur, I work very hard at my office job to afford my expensive habit. Is it a choice yes, but to someone who’s mommy and daddy pays for their made horses to take home all the ribbons, they don’t care. [/QUOTE]

Um… Wow…where to start. I am also an amateur at the lower levels who works 60-70 hour weeks. It entitled you to NOTHING different than any other competitor.

The second part of this is whiney, devisive and rude and makes you sound childish and jealous.

Again, you should fill out evaluations. You should let organizers know how you feel. But you aren’t coming across as constructive at all, to me.

[goodmorning]

But let’s look at the Upper level riders & PRO. The ‘organization’ exists to combat these issues that Amy’s feel are being overlooked for the upper level riders & owners. What’s even better (sarcasm) is the cost that is then trickled down to the lower levels to fund the upper level competitor desires.

What demands have PRO made and how have the influenced the event organizers budget? Ammys are the backbone of the sport, when catering to the upper levels is done at the expense of the lower levels - people feel it. I’m not talking about Rolex here, either. Thad only an UL competition, and yet, everyone feels the warm & fuzzies.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=KayBee;8222188]

But, please, let’s not compare eventing, especially those events at the lower levels, to a for-profit model, of, well, anything. We share much more in common with sports like triathlons and bike races that, too, depend largely on volunteerism to exist. And I think it’s really dangerous to think of it as a service. A service implies that there’s an exchange and the benefit is on both sides. I’m really not sure what the “benefit” is to the organizer and the volunteer other than the satisfaction of pulling off a huge undertaking (and as mentioned, contributing to the health of the sport).[/QUOTE]

KayBee, with respect, putting on an Event is a service. It is an exchange of goods. While we understand that volunteers are a part of the equation, the venue is owned by someone and they are offering it for a specific use. Whether they make a profit or not, they accept the responsibility of putting on a show for more than just altruistic reasons. They get something out of it even it is the satisfaction of putting on a show. Otherwise, why even make the effort.

Part of this discussion has been about the idea of is this for profit or loss, and if profit how much can be rolled back into the idea of attracting more people. If not for profit, then why are Events run and if if folks do this for the good feeling, then cost is not a factor.

I can’t imagine that is the case for were I to put on a Event, I’d want to ensure two things, I can pay for all my costs including future ones, and that I can keep people coming back. That is the basic definition of a for profit business whether it it is Eventing, sailing national championships, or a restaurant.

The benefit is exactly what you mentioned at the end, the satisfaction of doing something people have a passion for. Again, if I had the property, even some of the money I would run shows and I know I wont make much money, but I’d love the opportunity to provide a place where people can meet and compete and have fun.

So I’ll stand on my restaurant example since I’ve seen many an owner not make tons of money, but provide a service and product that people enjoy and the proprietor enjoys making. The volunteers, the staff, the rest is just the structure added to the foundation of desire originating from the owner of the venue. When they don’t care any more, when they can’t afford it, that is when it ends.

[frugalannie]

OMGiH this thread is devolving! (JP60 this was written before your post, BTW.)

Sorry if some of my comments were off the main point, but they were in response to specific posts (which I tried to quote).

I think perhaps we’re very lucky here in Area 1. While we may not be a mecca for eventing like Area 2 and the south, we’ve been fortunate to have some terrific events that have gotten even better over time. I can recall a couple of venues (UNH eg) that had dreadful footing if it had rained anytime in the previous couple of weeks. They’ve worked hard to improve it, and based on my last look at it footing is no longer an issue. GMHA has poured money into improvements and then into repairs after damage from floods. Stuart and Millbrook are way up there, but there are great venues like King Oak, Valinor, Riga Meadow, Genessee Valley, Fitch’s Corner, Huntington and too many others to list that are there for riders of all levels.

I compete very little now, but my impression attending these events with competitors is that there have been enormous improvements over the years and that’s a good thing. For me, any event I go to has that feel of seeing friends again, the same people counting me down in the start box and offering a cheery “have a good ride”, and officials and volunteers who really want to help make it the best day possible.

I feel really badly that there are parts of the eventing world that aren’t like that. I’m glad that those who compete in those locales love the sport enough to stay with it. And I think that the comments that have been made should be taken seriously by organizers.

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=lecoeurtriste;8221832]
We used to give a prize for the rider with the highest score after dressage and cross country (when you earned penalties for falling off versus an E, scores could be pretty high!)…we’d give it out at the competitors’ party the night before stadium, and the winner was usually grinning ear-to-ear to know that even though it wasn’t their weekend, their participation was still appreciated.[/QUOTE]

@HiJumpGrrl;8221876

I won that award at one of those events once… I think my score was >150. A fall and 2 stops! WOOT! I still use the grooming tote I won.

I remember those days as well! I seem to recall racking up some sweet triple digit scores :lol:

The competitor party was always a fun way to end the day, stabling was great, little trial sized gifts in the packet . . . .good times.

Hey, lecoeur, with the old website gone is is there still an online record of old scores? Now I’m curious to see just how HIGH that high score was, lol.

[frugalannie]

HA, Acme: I once got 120 points for one fall because there were overlapping penalty areas.

One other thought. It may be harder to get sponsors and giveaways in this era of internet advertising and marketing. I see fewer sample packs across the board, not just in the horse world, and sponsors who want hard numbers to show the benefit of their donation. But maybe I’m just isolated

[JP60]

[QUOTE=SevenDogs;8222194]
Um… Wow…where to start. I am also an amateur at the lower levels who works 60-70 hour weeks. It entitled you to NOTHING different than any other competitor.

The second part of this is whiney, devisive and rude and makes you sound childish and jealous.

Again, you should fill out evaluations. You should let organizers know how you feel. But you aren’t coming across as constructive at all, to me.[/QUOTE]

Seven…ummm…where’s the love. I hate to think she(he?) hit a nerve. If you work 60-70 hours a week, and have time to ride and compete, and do well enough to place then man, I tip my hat that you have such a zen feeling. I also have an office job (sorry, only 40 hours, must be a slacker :sadsmile: ), own a farm that seems to constantly break down, four horses that constantly demand my attention, ride, take lessons and still compete. I have to confess that it is hard to not resent, even for a moment kids, that pretty much get everything done for them and have a horse that might have been a Rolex champion as I’m presenting my mystery horse that seems to hate dressage for his test and they complain that they only got third when I was thrilled for finishing…but I digress…

How about we stop attacking and maybe, perhaps, possibly see that the person you are calling whiny, divisive, and rude (she/he was not even close to rude) is the rider just ahead of you that had a less than great dressage score and is taking the whip hard on their own back. That it is a human being?

You’ve been on this forum since 2008, LadyB since 2013 which might indicate a difference in viewpoints based on experience. As I read her(?) comment, I found it reflects a passionate rider proud of her accomplishments and just wanting that recognition for the effort. The topic was about event bling and can it help promote shows. You seem neutral to not interested so why attack those are have passion before understanding where that passion comes from.

I mean…it’s just a thought

[canadianbacon]

I think to really understand the changes is to look at how the industry and sport as a whole have changed over the years. I am not old enough to know what it was like eventing the 70s and 80s since I was just learning to post the trot but from the information I have read it seems that it used to be a sport, not a profession at the upper levels. Now there are highly publicized sponsorships, syndicates and other influences such as legal issues such as liability and insurance that may play a larger role today than in the past. I think the issue is deeper than ribbons and organizers treating competitors like a number, I think it is a symptom of the greater changes in the sport as a whole…

[SevenDogs]

JP60 you are correct. Did my first BN in 1992. It is difficult for everyone to do it. Posting a diatribe about “mommy and daddy buying made horses” and shows giving out “cheap ribbons” is stupid, at best and damaging at worst. If the OP is unhappy, no one is forcing her to attend.

If she (or he) wants better prizes, contact the organizer or volunteer to find sponsors. She is coming across as the type that has no clue where her entry fee goes. Comparing to a “for profit” business like a restaurant isn’t accurate for most events.

No one I know is getting rich organizing events. Some do better than others but most profits (if any) go right back into facilities, fences, etc. I know enough that I would never be an organizer, and I will defend them every day of the week, with a few exception (there are the occasional ones that shouldn’t be doing it and weed themselves out fast).

I know how easily events go away and how many operate on a shoestring, risking losing money if something goes wrong. So many that do it for the love of the sport. It is NOT big business. Talk to you local organizer. Most are more than willing to show you the budget. There is a reason volunteers are required to even run an event. That’s part of what makes it special.

Perhaps the OP needs a better understanding of the sport and its history before heading in a whiney rant. That or she could always quit her job and seek her (or his) fortune in event organizing.

[asterix]

I would love to know how many competitors volunteer. I am well aware of the tremendous time constraints for many working amateurs, but as others have said there are ways to volunteer before the horse trial that can be done in small chunks (such as reaching out to potential sponsors).
We have a great volunteer who does just that and it has resulted in a very clear uptick in actual prizes for top places, giveaways, and so on.
I think if everyone volunteered, particularly in some prep or behind the scenes role (jump judging etc is fun and needed but gives you less of an insight into how the whole machine runs), it would contribute to a sense of all belonging to one sport rather than the I am a customer/why has service declined feelings.
In area ii we have enough of a base to support both destination events and more mom and pop type events, and I appreciate both in different ways.
We need happy competitors willing to come out and enjoy the sport whenever they can…

So, please, please, if you are unhappy, do two things:
Tell your local organizers.
Volunteer to help make something better.

[lecoeurtriste]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;8222323]
I remember those days as well! I seem to recall racking up some sweet triple digit scores :lol:

The competitor party was always a fun way to end the day, stabling was great, little trial sized gifts in the packet . . . .good times.

Hey, lecoeur, with the old website gone is is there still an online record of old scores? Now I’m curious to see just how HIGH that high score was, lol.[/QUOTE]

I bet I still have the scores somewhere in my laptop!

[LadyB]

SevenDogs, clearly you didn’t read my whole post or you chose to ignore most of it.

Did I say I was unhappy with eventing and venues? no. I actually pointed out 3 times that I truly appreciate those who hold events. My question was why before they were able to do it all but now don’t seem to care as much about the end results.

Clearly your perspective is different than mine. JP60 has put it in to words perfectly for me. S/He is much better with her words and can explain exactly how I feel. Clearly it comes off the wrong way, but I definitely work my butt off, run a farm at home plus work 40.5 hours a week. So maybe I’m not a go-getter like you is what you’re trying to tell me. Last time I checked a farm was a full time job as well as my office job, so when I work THAT hard and have brought a TB up from the track to eventing and have had my ups and downs, spent thousands of dollars to get where I am, then yes I would say I’m extremely passionate about what I do and how hard I work.

Clearly between your hard working hours you also like to take the time to bash people personally which is truly degrading on your part and seems childish and immature to me. Again I guess we both have different outlooks. I’m sorry you feel insulting me is less childish as well.

Please don’t feel like you are entitled and the hardest working here, I think there are more people on here that are harder working and scrounge up more pennies to get to do what WE ALL LOVE. At the end of the day we all have the same goal. I don’t think you need to be so harsh about it.