Chestnuts (on legs)... explaining them to a creationist???

[Appassionato]

@poltroon;1941620

I’d like a creationist to explain the hock joint to me. Is it because God believes in full employment for veterinarians and pharmaceutical companies?

And the digestive tract!

In any case, I feel the parent was rude. If anything, she should have pulled the OP to the side later and explained her belief system, and that she preferred her daughter to follow that path. I don’t necessarily agree with the path, but I feel it isn’t against any laws either. Basically, the parent chose a poor way to handle it instead of a better way.

I go to a SBC affiliated college (Mercer University). I’m always shocked that while they leave creationism, or “intelligent design”, out of the mix when discussing the theories. I’m also always shocked to find out the evolutionary “facts” that have been debunked…or not!

For the record, I’m split down the middle. I see both sides and their points. But only because I actually listened and threw my own beliefs to the side and actually listened.

[zagafi]

I think creation and evolution coexist nicely, actually. And since we’ve got proof of many species evolving, I really don’t get the argument that it HAS to be one or the other. Then again, I don’t think the Bible dropped straight from heaven in a leather bound King James version, either.

[Alagirl]

@zagafi;1942129

I think creation and evolution coexist nicely, actually. And since we’ve got proof of many species evolving, I really don’t get the argument that it HAS to be one or the other. Then again, I don’t think the Bible dropped straight from heaven in a leather bound King James version, either.

Heathen!

:winkgrin: :lol:

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;1941931]
So why would evolution preclude creationism? I know my god would be smart enough to “create” through evolution. That has always mystified me. Such an either/or, black/white, way if looking at the universe…My belief it is the vestigial remains of the “toes” [/QUOTE]

Thank you for stating so clearly what I believe to be so obvious!!!

[Duramax]

[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;1941931]
So why would evolution preclude creationism? I know my god would be smart enough to “create” through evolution. That has always mystified me. Such an either/or, black/white, way if looking at the universe…[/QUOTE]

Ditto.

[arabhorse2]

Former Catholic, and born-again Pentecostal here.

I have always been of the opinion that evolution and God dovetail nicely. Why can’t they coexist? P.S.–Don’t tell my congregation this; I might be unborn-again or something… :lol:

The Bible states that the world was created in 6 days, and God rested on the 7th, but how long were the days? Isn’t God timeless, so therefore our perception of what days are isn’t the Lord’s?

I marvel at evolution, and think that it’s an amazing way to show how God got everything started.

As far as chestnuts being remants of vestigial toes, I thought that argument had been disproved? I could be wrong of course, but I thought I’d read somewhere that scientists didn’t believe that theory anymore.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=jetsmom;1941669]
Tell them God put them there to test the faith of creationists…much like why we have Duckbill Platypusses.

(or re the DP- God was stoned and thought, “Hey…This will really mess with their minds…I’ll make something that looks like a Beaver, has a bill like a duck,and is a mammal that lays eggs. That will really mess with those people that believe in evolution…Hey Moses!!!Check this out!!!”[/QUOTE]

And don’t forget its poisonous spines!!

[cyberbay]

I just use my senses, including observation. I’ve been coming to the conclusion that people who need a God have a deficit in their relationship with themselves. They don’t believe in themselves, they don’t believe in their own sense of ability or their own power. They won’t accept the full spectrum of the human psyche or human nature (all its so-called ‘good’ and all its so-called ‘bad’) – they absolutely refuse to believe that they could do anything as bad as the criminal they hear about on the evening news, but don’t think twice about supporting, say, the death penalty. They need to have something ‘outside’ of themselves , to explain scary things (like 9-11 or the tsunami), or b/c of their fear of chaos. They don’t accept that life is naturally chaotic (all you have to do is look at the supposed chaos of nature), and certainly don’t see that chaos has plenty of order (at least in Nature–and these people tend to be fearing and hating of nature, too). They have little sense of wonder. People like this, even scientists, who ‘explore’ every day in the laboratory, but claim a belief in God, are still stepping away from the full force of life and what’s become obvious to me that humankind is irrelevant in the scheme of things. They need a God (human-like, of course) to do an end-run on this fact and to say, “see, see, it IS all about us, after all.” And creationist thinking is just more of this need to make humans the center of it all (by making a human-like God who is here like Daddy).

[WingedPanda]

Why do horses have chestnuts and ergots? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put them there when he touched the first horse with His Noodly Appendage. Duh.

[QUOTE=greysandbays;1941671]
Well, THIS “creationist” has concluded that anybody that thinks a chestnut is the remanant of an old toe is an idiot. [/QUOTE]

Nice. I have absolutely zero respect for someone who can only argue their point this way. Always nice to be reassured that our society has not risen above the “you don’t think like I think, so you’re dumb” mentality.

As for the rest of your “theory”, cum hoc ergo propter hoc is a causative fallacy - correlation does not imply causation.

[arabhorse2]

9/11 was terrorist extremists, and the tsunamis, as well as the U.S. hurricanes, were nature/weather. I think that explains them pretty well.

You don’t “get” why we’re believers, but that doesn’t mean you should denigrate us. I accept that there are folks out there who don’t believe, and that’s their right. I would never condemn someone for thinking differently than me.

What does humanity’s capacity to do great evil or good have to do with whether or not I believe in God? People have free will; they will do as they see fit. I do know that some of the worst atrocities committed have been in the name of God, but I also know that others have been committed by people who have no other god than themselves.

Bad things are going to happen, and a lot of it is random. So why can’t I see all of that and still believe?

Now going to retire to a safe corner, sing hymns, and watch the rest of the trainwreck…

[Overo]

Sorry to burst your bubbles but I have it on rather good authority from the local crazy lady that chestnuts are there to assist the horse in breathing while it is being worked. :eek: :lol: You had best all be VERY careful bathing your horses or leaving them out in the rain lest they drown.

On a more rational note, there is not going to be a middle ground between a die-hard creationist and a pure evolutionist. Not ever. I’m a palaeontologist by education (specializing in long-extinct invertebrates) and am pretty sure I’ve heard all the arguments for and against creationism/intelligent design. I personally don’t believe in a “higher power” but that doesn’t mean I’m arrogant enough to insist that my beliefs are the only correct ones. There is too much that we don’t have a good explanation for - yet.

[zagafi]

@cyberbay;1942207

I just use my senses, including observation. I’ve been coming to the conclusion that people who need a God have a deficit in their relationship with themselves. They don’t believe in themselves, they don’t believe in their own sense of ability or their own power. They won’t accept the full spectrum of the human psyche or human nature (all its so-called ‘good’ and all its so-called ‘bad’) – they absolutely refuse to believe that they could do anything as bad as the criminal they hear about on the evening news, but don’t think twice about supporting, say, the death penalty. They need to have something ‘outside’ of themselves , to explain scary things (like 9-11 or the tsunami), or b/c of their fear of chaos. They don’t accept that life is naturally chaotic (all you have to do is look at the supposed chaos of nature), and certainly don’t see that chaos has plenty of order (at least in Nature–and these people tend to be fearing and hating of nature, too). They have little sense of wonder. People like this, even scientists, who ‘explore’ every day in the laboratory, but claim a belief in God, are still stepping away from the full force of life and what’s become obvious to me that humankind is irrelevant in the scheme of things. They need a God (human-like, of course) to do an end-run on this fact and to say, “see, see, it IS all about us, after all.” And creationist thinking is just more of this need to make humans the center of it all (by making a human-like God who is here like Daddy).

HUH? A belief in God (or whatever deity one might believe in) doesn’t require a sense of wonder? And you don’t think science and religion can coexist? And what’s more you don’t see that you’ve contradicted yourself–is nature chaotic or orderly?

See, the thing is, YOU seem to have a very narrow view. Yes, I believe in God. What I don’t believe, not for one second, is that He’s quite so easily packaged as what we might believe. I think he set things in motion and either by design or by “chaos” allowed things to grow and evolve. I don’t think God is a giant puppetmaster and certainly don’t think “his will” cause any of the tragedies you mention. You’ve overgeneralized to a ridiculous degree, so I’m not entirely sure what your point is, truly.

[Auventera_Two]

@CanadianGolden;1941621

Well IMO evolution isn’t something that requires belief. The facts are there, and facts do not require faith…they have been proven true. So it’s not a matter of “believing” in evolution; that woman is just wrong and foolish.

I probably would have told her that yes, I did believe it, and would she care to provide me with scientific proof for some other way that chestnuts got there. That would shut her up…

Absolutely.

I don’t pull punches. Millions of scientific facts point toward evolution while believing in a diety of some type requires faith in the absence of fact. I use chestnuts as another way to show people PROOF that we evolved!

[Mtn_trails]

“Dewclaws” are associated with cloven hooves. They’re not a “leftover bit of toe” any more than one half or the other of the cloven hoof would be – they are one of the properties of having cloven hooves in the first place. Dewclaws aren’t intended to be weightbearing under most circumstances, only a stablizer in deep or steep going."

This arguement makes no sense at all. So dogs are considered animals with cloven hooves, and cats too?

I’m mixing margaritas, got my lawn chair. Life is good. Anyone want a drink?

[cyberbay]

Geez, arabhorse2. I’m just questioning the outcome of this sort of belief in God. I agree with you, if I’m understanding you, that ‘stuff happens, move on.’ (But, I do disagree with you that if someone’s beliefs are hurting someone, yeah, something should be said. NOt about this post, though)< So, where was my post attacking you? I’m not attacking ‘belief’ as an action; I’m questioning the need to believe in a third party as a means and solution to all things on this earth or solar system. Why the need for the explanation?

A belief in God, I keep seeing, means needing to have an answer, an explanation, something, anything to explain the events that are seemingly hard to fathom (9-11 or the tsunami, as examples of ‘hard to fathom’). Versus just allowing that ‘strange’ event to be. It’s not a sense of wonder, but a need for control, an ordering. For the record, I have great belief. It’s ‘life belief,’ whatever ya wanna call it, but it ain’t in no third party (except Nature, since the facts keep repeating themselves there) b/c that’s, among other things, a way of aggrandizing and being personally irresponsible.

Well, I do think my view is broad, I’m just seeing that people use the “god” concept as a crutch. (I’m separating this argument from the pursuit of spirituality, which is each person’s own struggle). It sometimes seems to me that spiritual growth is stopped by ‘god.’ Keep going, is what I’m suggesting at this point.

Aologies if I wasn’t clear: my point is that I’m seeing that people need to believe in deities or a God b/c they need to feel in control, they need to explain, they don’t WANT that sense of wonder. Things on this earth or in the solar system just can’t BE, there has to be a reason for them, and it better b/c of a human-like deity who set things in motion. This is what I’m seeing. It’s not about me, or a spin-off of me, or a human-like characteristic.

Honestly, the wars and the environmental destruction are often predicated on people seeing things as all about ‘them.’ Otherwise, don’t you think we’d really be thinking twice about felling those 200-yr-old oaks, or filling in that marsh for more soccer-mom housing?

[Aggie4Bar]

I think science has pretty much debunked the toe theory in favour of scent glands. It’s also worth mentioning that some horses don’t have chestnuts.

Anyway, “what” and “why” are two different questions. If someone asks what it is, that’s generally not an invitation for a long-winded explanations. If they ask why, the easiest answer is to smile and say, “I don’t know. That’s just the way he’s made.”

[She_s_Incogneto]

@WingedPanda;1942224

Why do horses have chestnuts and ergots? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put them there when he touched the first horse with His Noodly Appendage. Duh.

Woot! FSM!!
“As a neuroscientist and clinical psychologist, I have often been struck by how the brain resembles pasta. Clearly, the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory is worthy of deep thought. Or at least a side order of garlic toast. Which is more than I can say about ID, which, as St. Sigmund taught, should be subservient to EGO (Equally Goofy Observations).”
–James Blackburn, Ph.D.

[Calena]

@WingedPanda;1942224

Why do horses have chestnuts and ergots? Because the Flying Spaghetti Monster put them there when he touched the first horse with His Noodly Appendage. Duh.

I vote for this one :D.

As a um . . . “mature” . . . Bible-believing/studying Evangelical Christian with an entire library of reference/background material to peruse and some time spent in seminary classes, I can say with some confidence that the subject of horse chestnuts and ergots isn’t addressed in the Bible. God apparently had other priorities.

Whatever I say or believe, I hope and pray that I have the decency and courtesy share this in a gentle kind caring manner. Otherwise, no matter what I say, I’m wrong.

[arabhorse2]

Cyberbay, point taken. Yes, if beliefs, regardless of where they come from, are hurtful to others then they should be reconsidered.

The problem that I’m seeing is there are people on both sides of the issue that are ignorant, hurtful, and disrespectful. To decry something that either side believes as ridiculous or idiotic, is doing nothing to further reconciliation.

I’ve never thought it was “all about me”. The universe certainly wasn’t created for humanity’s specific enjoyment or use. Neither was the Earth. We are as much a part of nature as any other species, but I can and do put God into that equation.

We as a species tend to be arrogant and selfish, and the God I believe in wants us to transcend that. We are supposed to nurture and care for each other, as well as the other inhabitants of this planet, human or not.

Everything has a finite life, even the universe. My beliefs indicate that the only thing outside that rule is God. Where I personally fit into that equation is up to Him, not me.

After all, if I’m wrong, I can take comfort in the fact that I was as good a human being as I could be. If I’m not, then maybe I’ll earn the ultimate reward as defined by my faith.

I don’t want to drag others kicking and screaming into my belief structure. All I want is respect, and I in turn will show respect to those who don’t believe as I do.

[DMK]

Why his noodly appendage reached down and touched my horse just the other day. That’s the only explanation I have for his behavior. Must have been divine intervention…

Note to self, must get another FSM logo to add to my horse trailer - turns out my car isn’t enough!

(yea, yea, like most good lapsed catholics, I’m up close and comfy with the concept of scientific theory, and I’m just as up close and comfy with the idea that something unique and unexplainable might have been behind the big bang… I’m just as equally happy with the idea that that something plays no role in a science class, being as its an article of faith, NOT something subject to the scientifc process. ID is just the first two letters in the word “idiot”.)