Chronicle Article "An Open Letter to Diane Carney"

[skydy]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Well sure. That’s the easy case. What about a case where a woman reports, “I was 45-year old Big Time Trainer’s groom in 1985 when I was 20 years old. He asked me out and we dated for 2 years; then he broke up with me to go out with someone else. Now I realize I felt pressured to date him because he was my boss and was such a big name in the sport… otherwise, I just would have told him no thanks.”

Should SafeSport take action now? It’s an interesting question. Today such a relationship would be prohibited by the SafeSport code, right?

If that person files a complaint perhaps they will take a look at it, but since Safe Sport has been overwhelmed by reports of the child grooming, molesting, raping, sort of complaints, the complaints are being triaged.

[Horsegirl_s_Mom]

@skydy

If that person files a complaint perhaps they will take a look at it, but since Safe Sport has been overwhelmed by reports of the child grooming, molesting, raping, sort of complaints, the complaints are being triaged.

Yes, that’s what Michael Henry said. I was just watching the very end of the broadcast. He really is a superb representative for SafeSport–thoughtful, educated, and fair-minded. I was struck by how seriously he took concerns about fair process and potential harms to an accused individual. While the SafeSport code gives the organization very sweeping authority, he personally inspires a lot of confidence that it will be applied judiciously and sensibly.

[TheMoo]

With many people truly believing Safe Sport could be weaponized and that the horse world is filled with vindictive people, wouldn’t we have seen the entire USEF topple by now if it was true?

Safe Sport never struck me as a heavy handed organization out to get people. What it is however, an organization that provides oversight to NGBs who have demonstrated in the past, they will not take complaints about sexual assault seriously.

USA gymnastics dropped the ball concerning Larry Nasser as did the USEF concerning Soresi. Soresi lodged a complaint against GHM and later recanted. The NGBs have had ample opportunity to police their members and failed to do so.

I truly do not understand the fear of an organization that exists to eliminate sexual predators from sport.

[findeight]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Now this is really a much more interesting point. I have read the SafeSport rules, and there is no question that SafeSport has the authority to sanction adults based on a power differential (say, a 40 year old trainer and 20 year old groom). Why do you think SafeSport would never do so? And do people think they should, or shouldn’t? Personally, I think it would be case-by-case depending on the circumstances and the evidence available.

Not a priority with consenting adults because it’s not criminal like it is with a minor. 20 year old might have been harassed or manipulated by her boss . Disgusting but not so black and white. Not on the level of grooming and sexually molesting and violating minors as young as pre teens. That has to be the priority and there is much if that to be shoveled through. And that is the point of SS, which goes far beyond the tiny equestrian niche. It’s not focused on hypothetical grey areas.

[poltroon]

@Horsegirl's Mom

Well sure. That’s the easy case. What about a case where a woman reports, “I was 45-year old Big Time Trainer’s groom in 1985 when I was 20 years old. He asked me out and we dated for 2 years; then he broke up with me to go out with someone else. Now I realize I felt pressured to date him because he was my boss and was such a big name in the sport… otherwise, I just would have told him no thanks.”

Should SafeSport take action now? It’s an interesting question. Today such a relationship would be prohibited by the SafeSport code, right?

So I’m not in charge, but if I were SafeSport, I would just put that in the file. I would not consider that actionable as is, but I’d call that person back if I got a fresh report about that same trainer with other participants.

May I point out also that while maybe you were using a euphemism, the word “dating” does not include sex or even unwanted sexual contact like a grope or kiss when you are talking to an investigator.

That would be a very different report if it said, “I was pressured to have sex with him for two years or else I would lose my job and my housing and he said if I quit he was sure I’d never work in the industry again.”

Mild regret between adults, happening one time, is not going to get their attention, and probably wouldn’t even if they weren’t busy with much weightier situations.

[MyssMyst]

So, on the 20yo groom who felt pressured to sleep with her boss… This is again where the equestriant world NEEDS to catch up with the real world. While not something that’s criminally actionable, employers can be held liable in civil court for this as it’s considered sexual harrassment. There’s a reason employers have you take sexual harrassment training.

[AMWookey]

@MyssMyst

So, on the 20yo groom who felt pressured to sleep with her boss… This is again where the equestriant world NEEDS to catch up with the real world. While not something that’s criminally actionable, employers can be held liable in civil court for this as it’s considered sexual harrassment. There’s a reason employers have you take sexual harrassment training.

This. Our military (Canadian) went through a major culture shift in the past few years. A majorly needed one. Everyone takes training, including bystander training which teaches you what is needed as people who observe sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior (even including jokes). We are mandated to do this training at least once a year, but most units will incorporate it even more.

People have lost their careers. People have gone to both military and civilian court. Their reputations have been tarnished. Sometimes its not something that can be criminally charged but they still get demoted and eventually get out. A Maj I know was highlighted as one of the first big cases. He was drunk and touched an adult woman inappropriately on the chest. Demoted, stripped of command. Another high ranking officer I know had a consensual relationship with a subordinate. Demoted, stripped of command. Both of these men faced military justice. One of those men propositioned their junior officers while on tour in Afghanistan. It was before the days of our additional training the officer did nothing about it, because it was the culture and she was used to it. It was wrong, it’s always wrong and sometimes people just need to know there will be someone there to support them on the other side.

[Atlas_Shrugged]

This may be a bit off the mark, but I will post it nevertheless - I attended a girls’ boarding school in the early 70’s, and brought my horse to board there. All these years l later, thanks to social media, I have reconnected with former classmates. After sharing stories about faculty, I have been able to put missing pieces of the puzzle together and realize that there were so many sexual relationships going on between faculty (both male and female faculty) and younger teenage students (as young as 15). Many of us have come to feel sick over it, having realized our suspicions to be true. So yes, things may have been “different” back then, because the schools and even society “looked the other way”, but I have since discovered that lasting harm was done to many of us as young women in that living environment.

[ladyj79]

@Atlas Shrugged

This may be a bit off the mark, but I will post it nevertheless - I attended a girls’ boarding school in the early 70’s, and brought my horse to board there. All these years l later, thanks to social media, I have reconnected with former classmates. After sharing stories about faculty, I have been able to put missing pieces of the puzzle together and realize that there were so many sexual relationships going on between faculty (both male and female faculty) and younger teenage students (as young as 15). Many of us have come to feel sick over it, having realized our suspicions to be true. So yes, things may have been “different” back then, because the schools and even society “looked the other way”, but I have since discovered that lasting harm was done to many of us as young women in that living environment.

I am very surprised you weren’t aware when you were there, if only because it seems like at least half of my female professors at a women’s college in the 2000s had married one of their professors. Hell, a professor friend of mine married one of his former students in 2011. Another one shortly thereafter…I feel like they have seven kids at this point.

[Atlas_Shrugged]

@ladyj79

I am very surprised you weren’t aware when you were there, if only because it seems like at least half of my female professors at a women’s college in the 2000s had married one of their professors. Hell, a professor friend of mine married one of his former students in 2011. Another one shortly thereafter…I feel like they have seven kids at this point.

Well that is the interesting part- I guess I just was unclear- I was 15 and chaste and though I had my suspicions, I really didn’t know what to think because of my innocence. And I think that was the situation for many of us Freshmen and Sophomores (I left after that because of the school’s drug problem, to be honest). I saw “girls” leaving in cars and behind closed doors with faculty members, but I was too naive to sure of what I was actually seeing and what was going on in private. I was from a good home (unlike some of my classmates) and did not realize there was that kind of “evil” in the world. Boy has that changed !

[TheMoo]

I can totally see people not seeing what is going on around them. Many if not most people are so wrapped up in their lives just don’t pay attention to things that do not directly impact them.

Also, if one is sheltered, one isn’t going to immediately make the connections the rest of us do.

[Jenerationx]

@TheMoo

I can totally see people not seeing what is going on around them. Many if not most people are so wrapped up in their lives just don’t pay attention to things that do not directly impact them.

Also, if one is sheltered, one isn’t going to immediately make the connections the rest of us do.

That’s true. I see all the shit because I went through it.

[quietann]

@ladyj79

I am very surprised you weren’t aware when you were there, if only because it seems like at least half of my female professors at a women’s college in the 2000s had married one of their professors. Hell, a professor friend of mine married one of his former students in 2011. Another one shortly thereafter…I feel like they have seven kids at this point.

Way back when, I was recruited for a tenure-track job at a CalState university that was fairly close to one of the University of California branches. The department was all women with one exception. The social dynamic seemed weird. I later found out that all but one of those women had been a grad student who married one of her professors, including some fairly big names in the field. The CalState was essentially serving as a place to employ the younger female ex-students as professors, so their husbands would stay in the UC.

I did not take the job.

[charlieTBD]

@poltroon

I think we do have a culture problem in our sport, where many professionals, especially ones who have never worked outside of the horse industry and never taken any training outside of it, really don’t understand how to conduct themselves professionally.

By this I mean that humans are a continuum. Some are going to behave badly or well no matter how they are socialized, but some learn “how to be important/successful/established” and how to conduct themselves from their mentors when they are young. And in some cases, people have learned that it is normal and appropriate to use drugs to win ribbons, to use illegal drugs themselves, to apply painful practices to horses, to yell at and belittle students, to search for sexual partners among the clientele, to lie about sales prices, to pad show-day bills, etc.

Out in the world we have HR departments and other trainings that are more transparent and more standardized. But a sole proprietor learning from a sole proprietor may never be exposed to any of those ideas, may not even be aware that the accounting they do is unethical or that hiring that cute girl as a working student with the hopes that she’ll have sex with you is not actually acceptable.

As such I don’t think you have to look very hard to see that our industry is full of people who left their spouses for 19 year old students or assistants, sometimes once a decade. Or people who have been sexually involved with most of the people who worked for them one way or another. Or people who were not safe to be alone in the barn with, because they thought nothing of using their power in the situation to indulge themselves even if just a grope or kiss or verbal innuendo. It is my sense that many of these people simply had no idea that what they were doing was unwanted or harmful. Even though it was in fact very unwanted and very harmful - there are some cases where it was just that they were so wrapped up in themselves and maybe saw someone they admired acting this way that they were unable to parse someone struggling to get away or even saying no as - THAT PERSON REALLY WANTS YOU TO GO AWAY. Add in drugs or alcohol and/or a student who has been conditioned to always obey the coach and it is worse. That doesn’t even get to the next step, where the dynamics of helping someone in distress can lead to weird and confused feelings towards someone who is a mentor or rescuer, which is why for example doctors and attorneys and teachers are not allowed to have sexual relationships with patients, clients, or students, even adult consensual ones. They are taught to understand those dynamics and to use their power to say no.

So I think, yes, our industry probably has dozens (maybe hundreds) of professionals who have made these kinds of mistakes. Those who haven’t probably know and love and respect someone who has. And they’re looking back at their own histories, and are frightened. Suddenly that assistant trainer or working student that they cornered in the barn has power over them. The ex-wife that he married at 18 and left for another young student when she was 28 has a new potential weapon. After all, it’s really uncomfortable when someone has power over you and might use it capriciously… amirite?

Some of us have had experiences like these, of this capricious power over our heads, all our lives, and some are learning about it now for the first time.

So I don’t think they’re really worried about a random person making a wholly false claim. After all, in theory they have this over their head all the time from law enforcement and all of society. I think they’re worried about ex-partners and ex-clients making claims that are true.

(Just one example: in addition to the sexual misconduct charges against George Morris, there are hundreds of incidents that are on video and/or witnessed by hundreds of people of him violating SafeSport code about bullying and harassment, in addition to what he wrote in his book. Lots of people modeled their teaching after him, though few were so brazen about it.)

That’s a tough thing to live with, all of a sudden.

They are not going to be successful with their lobbying to stop SafeSport. The congress is bipartisan on this issue and there’s no appetite to make things better for abusers in sport.

My best advice is to take this moment as a time to learn, and do better. To help others to do better. Most of the time, these long time accusations come forward because the victim is not only still hurting, but sees that person continuing to harm others. If you’re one of these people looking at your life and realizing that you’ve participated in these damaging behaviors, do what you have to do to do better. Don’t use the influence you have to cover for other people who have harmed others or to allow these harms to continue.

This is true, I know of two trainers who slept with teens. I do wonder how prevalent that was if I knew of two cases and was only in an American hunter barn for 2 years as a teenager who probably did not know very much!

There was also a lot of alcohol and drugs and parties, trainers and students sharing (not our barn, our coach was very conservative and also teetotal, lol- that might give away who they were!) but other kids I knew told me about it and I went to some parties. I do remember there was such an air of suspicion around mistrust in many barns around the trainers and grooms and barn owners husbands and such, I would like to think young men and women today do not have to deal with that. I never experienced that as a kid doing PC and show jumping later either. Parties yes and of course there was romance and broken hearts but not a culture of secrecy.