Cleaning stalls-How long should it take

[beowulf]

i wonder what the OP is paying. i certainly would not want to work per stall and do all of the T/O, water, etc.

i came back because i was just thinking out loud… it would take me ~10m to thoroughly pick the stall of a horse i knew the pattern of - including add bedding (we did 2-3"), add hay, & scrub and flip water bucket. these were horses stalled O/N for 8-12 hrs. but those same stalls would take me ~20m if the horse was on stall rest and i wasn’t stripping. nevermind the time it took to dump the wheelbarrow or drag the water out 20ft away – god forbid it snowed or there was inclement weather.

i really cannot imagine sifting through 15 stalls that were 6-8" of bedding with more than 12+ hours on them. you really could not pay me enough to do that daily.

[IronwoodFarm]

I would consider the value of not having turnover. Every time an employee leaves that means time and effort spent in hiring and training a replacement. And the new hire will have a learning curve. So it makes sense to hire someone that works well for you and then pay enough to keep him/her interested in the job. Otherwise you are spending the time you could have been teaching or training on hiring and staff training.

[gumtree]

We only bed on straw. I have found it much easier and quicker to muck out well than any other bedding. Especially when not done by myself.

As others have said there is an art/process to cleaning stalls well and efficiently. I have devolved my way of doing it over the years and insist that it is done my way. Newbies are a bit surprised that there is far more to it than face value. I have had a number of people who have taken an hour per stall even after being shown the process.

I run a business like any reasonably well run business time is money. Business owners know exactly how long things should/need to take. If not they will go broke. We also have to keep close tabs on expenses. I have to make it very clear that the objective is to not only clean the stall well and efficient use of time but in addition not wasting the bedding. A 1/4 bale of extra straw wasted per day at $4 per bale comes to $365 per year X 20 stalls, $7,300. That is a lot of money being thrown out in a business that has VERY thin profit margins to begin with.

It takes a very comfortable 15 minutes to muck, dust with barn dry, bed, set water and hay per stall. An empty stall. If the horse is not turned out we always have a “swing” stall available. We muck into a big double wheeled, wheel barrel. The water buckets are dumped into it also. Our muck pile is just off the back side of the barn. We just dump it the tractor with FEL piles everything when the stalls on done.

When I worked in large 40+ stall center isle barns We used a tractor with a spreader wagon pulled down the isle way. Stalls on either side were mucked into the wagon and we moved along like clock work. Take the spreader to the muck pile and spine it off the wagon. Done in no time. Go down the isle with a long hose and fill water buckets. The majority of horses were in their stalls at the same time. Pros have no problem mucking and bedding around horses.

We had small wagons to load with straw and set out by each stall before starting. After muck out stack the wagon with hay go by each stall and fill nets. Even to the causal observer they could see it was well choreographed and efficient.

I tell new hires they are expected to get it down to 15 minutes within 2 weeks. Some I have given a wind up timer so they have a reference. I try and make it a game. Just about all “newbies” are started at the same pay level but it is above minimum wage. They will get an appropriate raise at the end of the first month. I tell them they will be paid according to their worth to me. Not what they think they are worth. They make me happy it is in my best interest to make them happy to the best of my income ability.

I am do not crack the whip but I make it very clear when I know someone is slacking. I also do not expect someone to continuously muck stall after stall without some brief breaks. I explain I have done EVERYTHING they are expected to do and set realistic standards.

I do not pay by the “job”. Some by the hour, some are on salary. Days that come up “lite” I am happy to let someone go home early and still be paid for a full day. With in a month or so I pretty much know who is going to go the distance and who it is only a matter of time when they don’t show up after getting a pay check. They are paid accordingly.

A few years ago a “freelance” stall cleaning “team” showed up. They charged $5 per stall. Did a good job but I guess in the end the “numbers” didn’t work because they didn’t show up one day.

IME young people that have shown up looking for work with a “hobby, pony-club” back ground were a bit of a PITA. Their idea of how things are done were in for a rude awakening.

I grew up in a “working barn” the folks I worked with had a much better work ethic then what I am finding today. As a number of fellow employers have said to me, farm help or non, “I’m just happy most of the time if they just show up”.

Personally I think well skilled horse people are under paid. Unfortunately horse owners are only willing to pay up to a certain level. There have been threads on board rates and it seems a lot of people feel that level is around $400-500 per month. After paying all of the fixed expenses there’s not a lot left over to pay a decent wage and still pay one’s self enough to justify the ends.

At the racetrack these days a groom is paid $100 per horse for a 6 days a week. Some tracks it’s 7 with a day off every other week. They generally start at 5 and finished by 11-12. Unless they have a horse running that day. Swing people to feed and pick stalls in the afternoon. I am told most grooms rub 6 horses these days. IMO that is too many for one person to do a good job with racehorses.

When I groomed at the track in the early 70s I rubbed 3 and was paid $200 per week. Using an inflation calculator that is over $1000 in “today’s” money.

[TheJenners]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8775464]
whoa. 6-8 inches of bedding? 15 stalls? in for half or more of the day? duties including turnout, hay, and water? and you want it done in six hours?

no wonder you can’t keep a worker.

ex-BM speaking here – as someone who is incredibly expedient at stall picking – you have a very unrealistic precedent set. my advice to you would be to set aside 2-3 days and do all of the work yourself. time yourself from start to finish and then average those times. the result would be a rough average of how long it would take your worker; but keep in mind no barn ever has the same routine every day - there are days workers need to get a horse for a client, or days a horse wont finish grain, or days that a worker needs to hold a horse for a farrier, etc – you really should not expect the amount of work that you have be done within 6 hours. it’s very unrealistic and unfair to your worker.

my personal opinion: if you want the best care, the brightest workers, a happy barn and a willing employee that will not burn out – employ 1 worker for every six to seven horses.[/QUOTE]

So much this. I “managed” a 65 horse facility that ran through workers like nobody’s business because the owner was RIDICULOUS. She paid or traded approx $35-50/day to AM feed/turnout (2 hours), muck 21 stalls (3 hours), sweep the barn (120’ long, a dozen-ish trunks), and PM feed/bring in (2 hours), this includes bringing in or turning out stalled horses for feeding and putting pasture board horses in/out of outside pens for feeding and does not include if you needed to rebed a lot of the stalls (sawdust) or a horse(s) did any major rearranging of stall mats, buckets, etc, or injured/stalled horses who would need to be moved out, tied, put back, etc. These chores could be divided between people who were trading board/lessons and whatever hapless person she hired; I did all of them one day a week, PM fed three other days a week. I AM FAST, those are my fast-average times above with no major setbacks or added work. Most people would do the stalls as an all day deal, and yes feeding and turnout/turnin did take several hours and depending on who was doing it, finishing feeding would sometimes run into when the next person showed up to start bringing it, ie some boarder or lesson parent doing morning feeding starting at 9, dinner done by a teen who showed up directly after school at 3. It was a nightmare.

She never once did the same chores, not once, and had no clue…if a stallmucker quit, which they usually did by not showing up again or emailing her “I quit, go get stuffed” the evening of their last day or morning they weren’t showing up, nothing was done until she could arrange someone else to do it. You can’t pay a pittance for a job that doesn’t allow someone to work another job to compensate your crap pay and expect them to stay. IMO, the above job should have paid $100/day minimum, and that was 15 years ago. Your post doesn’t indicate what you pay “per stall” but if you are paying less than $70/day, you aren’t going to keep someone.

[lopinl8]

We had a stall cleaner that worked for me for 12 years 7 days a week. Since then they have been lasting about a year before quitting but we now have a week person and a weekend person rather than 7 days a week. Sadly, we are in a very rural location which limits both candidates and profit potential since most employee will have a 30+ min drive. Also boarding fees of $400-500 are on the very high side locally. So while I’m trying to stay competitive with other local stables, I want to adequately pay my help without cutting my own throat. Training fees help this but not every horse is a training horse. I am very reluctant to hire someone on a per hour basis. Due to scheduling most of the stall cleaners will work alone in the barn. I have had $300 phone bills because stall cleaner are on my barn phone making long distance calls or simply sit around for hours chatting with boarders. My only solution would to babysit them all day. I’ve hired all kinds, 4-Hers who love horsies, labors and previous stall cleaners all with their pros and cons. I appreciate your realistic input rather than the harshness of other posters in my attempt to get advice. Also does paying cash have any other influence?

[lopinl8]

We had a stall cleaner that worked for me for 12 years 7 days a week. Since then they have been lasting about a year before quitting but we now have a week person and a weekend person rather than 7 days a week. Sadly, we are in a very rural location which limits both candidates and profit potential since most employee will have a 30+ min drive. Also boarding fees of $400-500 are on the very high side locally. So while I’m trying to stay competitive with other local stables, I want to adequately pay my help without cutting my own throat. Training fees help this but not every horse is a training horse. I am very reluctant to hire someone on a per hour basis. Due to scheduling most of the stall cleaners will work alone in the barn. I have had $300 phone bills because stall cleaner are on my barn phone making long distance calls or simply sit around for hours chatting with boarders. My only solution would to babysit them all day. I’ve hired all kinds, 4-Hers who love horsies, labors and previous stall cleaners all with their pros and cons. I appreciate somes realistic input rather than the harshness of other posters in my attempt to get advice. Also does paying cash have any other influence?

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=lopinl8;8776373]
We had a stall cleaner that worked for me for 12 years 7 days a week. Since then they have been lasting about a year before quitting but we now have a week person and a weekend person rather than 7 days a week. Sadly, we are in a very rural location which limits both candidates and profit potential since most employee will have a 30+ min drive. Also boarding fees of $400-500 are on the very high side locally. So while I’m trying to stay competitive with other local stables, I want to adequately pay my help without cutting my own throat. Training fees help this but not every horse is a training horse. I am very reluctant to hire someone on a per hour basis. Due to scheduling most of the stall cleaners will work alone in the barn. I have had $300 phone bills because stall cleaner are on my barn phone making long distance calls or simply sit around for hours chatting with boarders. My only solution would to babysit them all day. I’ve hired all kinds, 4-Hers who love horsies, labors and previous stall cleaners all with their pros and cons. I appreciate somes realistic input rather than the harshness of other posters in my attempt to get advice. Also does paying cash have any other influence?[/QUOTE]

Are you reading a different thread than I am?

People gave you all kinds of ideas as answers to your original question.

When I worked for my trainer doing stalls I was paid by the stall. I have no issue with by the stall. The problem is, if I was going to drive half an hour just to clean it better be enough money to pay for that drive (fuel) and be worth working there. It does not sound like you are doing that. In my case it worked because I was going to the barn anyway and the money off my board made it worth it.
You either have to give these people enough work so you can reasonably pay them for a day or cut the amount of work so they are not there working most of the day for not much money.

I am shocked you kept anyone making them work seven days per week.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=lopinl8;8776373]
We had a stall cleaner that worked for me for 12 years 7 days a week. Since then they have been lasting about a year before quitting but we now have a week person and a weekend person rather than 7 days a week. Sadly, we are in a very rural location which limits both candidates and profit potential since most employee will have a 30+ min drive. Also boarding fees of $400-500 are on the very high side locally. So while I’m trying to stay competitive with other local stables, I want to adequately pay my help without cutting my own throat. Training fees help this but not every horse is a training horse. I am very reluctant to hire someone on a per hour basis. Due to scheduling most of the stall cleaners will work alone in the barn. I have had $300 phone bills because stall cleaner are on my barn phone making long distance calls or simply sit around for hours chatting with boarders. My only solution would to babysit them all day. I’ve hired all kinds, 4-Hers who love horsies, labors and previous stall cleaners all with their pros and cons. I appreciate somes realistic input rather than the harshness of other posters in my attempt to get advice. Also does paying cash have any other influence?[/QUOTE]

IMHO you are asking one person to do what is a 2 person job. any time there is more than 10 horses on a facility or more than 5 stalls that need to be done, it’s really best for two workers. unless you want a burnt out employee you really should have 2 staff on at all times in case of emergencies like having to hold the horse for the vet, etc… that way the chores still get done even if one worker is tied up.

so many people these days think boarders are off in their own little magical fairy realm – but it’s not just boarders; it’s barn owners too. no one wants to break their backs working hard for you for crappy pay, no benefits, and practically no time off…

[IPEsq]

With a 30 minute average commute, whether it’s a 5 hr job or 6 hr job it’s effectively full time in that they aren’t going to be able to do much else with their day, at least the weekday help. So, either you need to pay something reasonable for full time (and give them more to do like mow or weed whack or drag arenas or something more skilled such as handwalking or bathing which may allow you to get in more training per day), or you need more people for shorter p/t shifts. The thing is, with the drive, it is hard to get someone motivated to be reliable to do a 2-3 hour shift for some extra cash when they’ve got to be in the car for an hour and go to another job.

I think it’s fine to pay by the task if that helps ensure all the tasks get done, but at the end of the day they need to be able to walk away with a day’s pay that makes it worth to them to come back.

[horsenut_8700]

We have 15 horses and use sawdust, but on a good day it takes a minimum of 3 hours for one person to turnout, clean, prep stalls with hay and fill water buckets. It all depends on your set up and how efficient you are. If I work for someone else, I insist on being paid by the stall or horse since I’m not being penalized for being efficient.

[ponysaurus]

[QUOTE=lopinl8;8776373]
We had a stall cleaner that worked for me for 12 years 7 days a week. Since then they have been lasting about a year before quitting but we now have a week person and a weekend person rather than 7 days a week. Sadly, we are in a very rural location which limits both candidates and profit potential since most employee will have a 30+ min drive. Also boarding fees of $400-500 are on the very high side locally. So while I’m trying to stay competitive with other local stables, I want to adequately pay my help without cutting my own throat. Training fees help this but not every horse is a training horse. I am very reluctant to hire someone on a per hour basis. Due to scheduling most of the stall cleaners will work alone in the barn. I have had $300 phone bills because stall cleaner are on my barn phone making long distance calls or simply sit around for hours chatting with boarders. My only solution would to babysit them all day. I’ve hired all kinds, 4-Hers who love horsies, labors and previous stall cleaners all with their pros and cons. I appreciate somes realistic input rather than the harshness of other posters in my attempt to get advice. Also does paying cash have any other influence?[/QUOTE]

1. Turn off the phone in the barn or lock it somehow so it cannot be used. Doesn’t everyone have a cell phone these days anyway?

2. They should understand they are there to clean stalls and not socialize to excess; however, building trust and rapport between your “help” and your boarders is a good thing and it can benefit you in the long run.

I don’t see anything that was harsh in any of the posts, except maybe the reality of the fact you have yet to find a good fit for your expectations.

Good luck with your search.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=ponysaurus;8776489]
I don’t see anything that was harsh in any of the posts, except maybe the reality of the fact you have yet to find a good fit for your expectations.

Good luck with your search.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I also want to know what the “good rate” of pay is for this job, and don’t really get the “per stall” concept rather than just make it a weekly amount?In my area, $10/hour is truly unskilled labor; a person who may or may not really give a darn about their job. I pay my unskilled laborers $12-15/hour and raise my expectations…or, for some jobs I pay a skilled laborer $20/end and know I don’t have to supervise and probably save money in the end.

I think one of the issues is that you are comparing potential employees to the very unusual person that cleaned stalls for you 7 days a week for 12 years. That’s not typical. At all.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=S1969;8776562]
I agree. I also want to know what the “good rate” of pay is for this job, and don’t really get the “per stall” concept rather than just make it a weekly amount?In my area, $10/hour is truly unskilled labor; a person who may or may not really give a darn about their job. I pay my unskilled laborers $12-15/hour and raise my expectations…or, for some jobs I pay a skilled laborer $20/end and know I don’t have to supervise and probably save money in the end.

I think one of the issues is that you are comparing potential employees to the very unusual person that cleaned stalls for you 7 days a week for 12 years. That’s not typical. At all.[/QUOTE]

I’ll come work for you. No training required. Unskilled $12-15. My wife works for Apple as a sales associate $15 per hours plus decent benefits. But not great by any stretch of the imagination. She was an Ipad, Iphone wiz before she was hired. So I would think most people would consider her “skilled”. She is college educated and speaks fluent Italian. I think it is the largest Apple store in the country and close to an international airport. It took her 2 years and I think 5 call-back interviews before she got hired. She has to work all kinds of wacky hours.

As I said in my previous comment horse jobs don’t pay what they should pay. Highly skilled horse people don’t make much more than the person that mucks stalls. Unless the operation is in a area that can attract people that will pay at least $800 per month and they have reasonably low operation costs. The market, the business does not allow to pay what it should.

I am talking about operations that are the owner’s business not a side business. The horse “businesses” around here that can pay upwards of $12-15 per hr for basically manual labor are owned and run by people who have a “real” job or their spouse does. A job that pays very well and covers the mortgage and other things like R&M insurance etc.

[Angela_Freda]

This is all so frustrating to read. I am a good worker, a hard worker who takes pride in a job well done and in healthy happy horses [and clients]… and finding a job that pays ok, but more importantly doesn’t mean I work with a fruit loop is near impossible.
Another reason the horse industry is dying…

[mvp]

[QUOTE=lopinl8;8776373]
Also does paying cash have any other influence?[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. Your workers might like that, but you are cheating the IRS. And in addition, you are very, very exposed if someone gets hurt while working on your place. Think carefully before you go the cash route.

[ladyj79]

You should pretty much have two full time employees legally on staff. Anything else is pretty awful.

[Garythesquirrel]

I can’t get past the someone working/cleaning stalls 7 days a week for 12 years.

[Wonders12]

[QUOTE=S1969;8776562]
I think one of the issues is that you are comparing potential employees to the very unusual person that cleaned stalls for you 7 days a week for 12 years. That’s not typical. At all.[/QUOTE]

This.

Be fortunate you found that gem, but you cannot hold all of your employees to the same expectations.

I’ve also posted several times on here about interviewing, hiring, and training employees. It’s a skill that can make or break your staff. I’m honestly hesitant to take the time to re-post though, because you appear to be more focused on being right than learning how to better run your barn.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8776650]
I’ll come work for you. No training required. Unskilled $12-15. My wife works for Apple as a sales associate $15 per hours plus decent benefits. But not great by any stretch of the imagination. [/QUOTE]

You’re hired!

I am in NY, and live in an affluent area near the capital. When I first moved here 11 years ago I met some farm kids who would work for $10/hour and they had all kinds of crazy skills. They knew how to build stuff, could fix stuff, put up fencing, etc. But they grew up and moved away.

So I have hired “kids from town” and most of them are not very hard workers…at least not for a farm. If I can stack hay faster than them, it’s a sad story because I am a total weakling.

[riverinthewoods]

Our barn has approximately 13 stalls - 11 of which are being used. We have a total of 21 horses, so the other 9 live outside.

I can get the morning chores done in about 3 hours if I don’t fool around or take my time, I don’t necessarily hustle but have if I needed to to cut down by a half hour or so. This includes feeding horses inside horses, feeding outside horses, throwing hay in the fields, turning out the other 11 (also have to move some of the outsiders around), then I come in to clean stalls, bed, sweep, do water buckets and refill grain. If I am really ambitious, I will set up the night time hay in the stalls.

I more or less have it down to a science and I think anyone new would really need to get to know the barn before they could do it as quickly. Some stalls take me longer than others and then some horses will just poop in one spot and it’s super easy. I know their ‘routine’ and where to find the wet spots and hidden poop piles. 11 stalls takes me about an hour and a half - and I haven’t had any complaints. There is only one stall that I HATE to do and I save that one for last as it’s my hardest and will take one-two wheelbarrow fulls.

For turn-out I bring a select few horses in or out together to save on the back and forth. This typically takes up almost an hour of my time because it’s a bit of a walk.

I’ll be honest and tell you that I mostly work off lessons - so two feedings = 1 lesson ($35). If I got paid per stall I would be making decent money in 3 hours but it really just depends on the barn, the routine, etc.