Clinic hell

[Brady_smom]

Seigi - I know you didn’t address it to me, but for the record I personally did not mention any specific riders or videos as examples.

I know that this thread has gone way off topic, but since it has, and everyone seems ready to hop on for the ride –

WHY is training with the least amount of gear/no gear akin to ‘circus riding’?

Is it because the circus is the most common place people seem to see horses working at liberty or without gear these days?

ALSO - why would we think that a person who trains without the same gear and methods as everyone else must be using methods that are incorrect/false/less-than-respectable?

Understanding and capitalizing on a horse’s body language, herd instinct, ability to learn by repetition, and predator/prey reflexes is the foundation of training. It doesn’t have to be done under a dressage saddle with a square pad in a double bridle.

There are always going to be different opinions on training and equipment.

The final proof is the supple, healthy, happy and obedient horse that responds to imperceptible aids, leaving others in its wake.

[AllWeatherGal]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2144068]
Dear Bluey -

Freddie Knie was a circus rider… and that’s what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear…

Best,[/QUOTE]

I guess someone had to point it out, sad tho it is.

In addition, when y’all are talking about dressage movements/exercises … please, let’s not forget the part about QUALITY?

When a little tap can say “a little more from here, please” when a finely nuanced seat aid might be misconstrued as one of any other nuanced seat aids … well …

I guess it’s just easier on both me and the horse to use a few extra pieces of “decoration” and if that’s a shortcut, then well … seriously, we’re both happier for it.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2144068]
Dear Bluey -

Freddie Knie was a circus rider… and that’s what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear…

Best,[/QUOTE]

Do you consider the Spanish Riding School also be “circus riding”?
It is managed mainly for exhibitions, last I checked.

Freddie Knie did manage a circus, but his riding was very correct, even if the circus acts were what he made his living with and, last I checked, both are not mutually exclusive.

[siegi_b]

Hi Brady’s Mom,

I guess it all depends on what your goal is when it comes to riding… If you are training to get to FEI level or to get on the US Team, using a bridle, saddle, etc. is the way to go.

Sure you can ride without saddle and, maybe, if it’s an older horse, just attaching lead lines to the halter will do, BUT I don’t believe that anybody on this board will start an unbroken youngsters without any of those “gadgets”. There is a common phenomenon where youngsters, once they’ve been in training for a while, love their new muscles and will test them at very inappropriate moments. You may call it “flight instinct”, I call it “joie de vive”. The point is that that will be one of many times when having a “gadget” will save your butt regardless of how “balanced” you and your horse are.

To me the very fact that you’re sitting on a horse could be construed as “gadgetry” (is that a word??). Wouldn’t it be much more desirable to have the horse perform all the tricks WITHOUT having to endure the weight of a rider? Keep in mind that the horse’s spine physiologically is not a great weight carrier to begin with.

All I’m trying to say is that this argument over gadgets can take on silly proportions, and I would rather prefer not going there.

[Brady_smom]

Hey Seigi - you made me chuckle out loud and smile.
For sure I would not dream about getting on board my greenie without a saddle and bridle because I know he has the propulsion of a jet and no clue what restraint and ‘respect for the rider’ means at this age and stage.

I’m not advocating that all people should ride all horses with nothing. Training has to begin somewhere, and until it is well underway, the ‘bond of friendship and trust’ will not cut it 99% of the time. They are prey animals, and flight is the most common response to unknown/fearful stimulous (which we as mentioned capitalize on while we train).

Also I know that currently FEI requires saddle, double bridle, tails, top hat, all that regalia. It is the standard. Some of it is attractive to look at.

Question - who sets the standards, and how and when do they change?

Usually, when a better way can be found to perform a task, and someone is bold enough to walk away from the rest is when things change.

Lastly, I think the majority of things that a horse should be asked to do should be based on the logical need for a task (capriole, levade, piroutte, all were requirements of a battle-horse) or for the sheer beauty and pleasure of performing the movement. It should not be considered a trick if it has a useful purpose.

For something to be the most beautiful, it should be willingly done, with joy and without strain or injury, because we want to do it, not because we are forced to do it (with ‘gagets’ or unfair training methods). Much, much, MUCH work to reach that level. Don’t know if I’ll ever reach it, my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak. I can still try.

[P.R.E]

@Brady'smom;2144063

My opinion. Since I’ve already been advised in this thread that I am entitled to have one (thankyou, oh-so-gracious giver of permissions) I will keep it.

You are welcome my child!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Brady_smom]

[QUOTE=P.R.E.;2144326]
You are welcome my child!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :D[/QUOTE]

YOU SLAY ME!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[P.R.E]

[QUOTE=Brady’smom;2144332]
YOU SLAY ME!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]

stay out of the cold and hope you have a great day

[Brady_smom]

[QUOTE=P.R.E.;2144347]
stay out of the cold and hope you have a great day ;)[/QUOTE]
I’ve gotta try and motivate myself to go out into that cold and the new 8 inches of snow we got last night (we had a green Christmas and new years) to do some more long-reining.

Thanks for the good wish, you too!

[sherie]

Wow P.R.E.I shall assume you’re just having a really bad day or somethin’.I’m not bitter in the least. Actually, It’s really quite liberating to not care what others think so much and I’m actually sympathetic toward people who will never know the satisfaction of training their own horses the classical way. My frustration is mitigated by the fact that my median score this year was a73% and I won two year-end championships. These were all on horses under $12,000 and some were quite “fixer-uppers”. I simply don’t use spurs in the beginning and aschew draw reins unless I have a medical condition that would preclude my use of personal athleticism. I urge you to exercise your right NOT to talk to people like me. Make my day.and you have a good one…PLEASE…

[P.R.E]

[QUOTE=sherie;2141408]
I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don’t know how to tech or they think you’re a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings.

And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don’t talk to me anyway!![/QUOTE]

Am I the one having a bad day??:no: :no: :no:

[siegi_b]

To Brady’s Mom - The standards for what constitutes “correct” riding have evolved over many years with a lot it based on what the old masters wrote, at least as far as dressage is concerned. None of the so called “gadgets” are new inventions - people have used saddles, spurs, bridles, and whips all along, and I would venture to say that in general today’s gadgets are much, much easier on the horse. There have been improvements in both riding and gadgets over the years, but again they were pretty much in keeping with the principles laid down by the old masters. One of the biggest improvements came when people started to breed better dressage horses… With the advent of the dressage specialist, movements got bigger and more expressive and conformations more conducive to proper execution of movements.

The only reason I’m even writing this novel is to illustrate to you that in order to “change” these standards it’s going to require a lot of effort proving that whatever the change is will, in fact, improve what’s being done today. And it won’t be something that happens overnight, but rather over the years if it’s going to happen at all.

In the end, the folks that aren’t happy with today’s dressage can effect change, but only by leading with example… something I haven’t seen yet. Talking/writing is cheap… you have to walk the walk.

Just my opinion…

[Brady_smom]

[QUOTE=siegi b.;2144593]

The only reason I’m even writing this novel is to illustrate to you that in order to “change” these standards it’s going to require a lot of effort proving that whatever the change is will, in fact, improve what’s being done today. And it won’t be something that happens overnight, but rather over the years if it’s going to happen at all.

In the end, the folks that aren’t happy with today’s dressage can effect change, but only by leading with example… something I haven’t seen yet. Talking/writing is cheap… you have to walk the walk.

Just my opinion…[/QUOTE]

Yup. I totally agree. To quote myself,

“Usually, when a better way can be found to perform a task, and someone is bold enough to walk away from the rest is when things change.”
…and –
“Much, much, MUCH work [i have] to reach that level. Don’t know if I’ll ever reach it, my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak. I can still try.”

As far as talk and writing being cheap, change begins with an idea and a theory in people’s brains. I am sharing those ideas and seeking ways of reaching a goal.

Those who want to lead by example have to start or come from somewhere. Today’s superstars were unknown folks with what may have been offbeat methods 10-15 years ago. Who heard of RK back then? Not many. It was certainly not mainstream, but now anky is the madonna of dressage for many - she can do no wrong in their eyes.

Lastly, some people also may not care to broadcast their certifications – there is benefit to anonymity in that a broader and unvarnished range of opinions can be gathered.

[sherie]

Apparently, you are. But from now on, if you have a personal problem with me, I suggest you make use of the p.m. system so as not to dilute this thread further. Though,since you can’t possibly know me, I can’t imagine what I’ve done to extract such venom from you.

[P.R.E]

[QUOTE=sherie;2145306]
Apparently, you are. But from now on, if you have a personal problem with me, I suggest you make use of the p.m. system so as not to dilute this thread further. Though,since you can’t possibly know me, I can’t imagine what I’ve done to extract such venom from you.[/QUOTE]

You can bash the other trainers in your barn, but I can’t make a comment about you. By the way, I do know you and I have no personal problem with you, becaue I can’t care less about you. I just find that your comments regarding your fellow trainers are very unkind and unprovoked.

[DressageGeek_Ribbon]

From a training level/first level rider, for what it’s worth:

I have a sensitive OTTB. Great work ethic. I don’t wear spurs. At some point, when my leg is sufficiently educated that the spur will act as a subtle, refining aid, I will then use them. Presumably we will then be doing the kinds of things that will require that.

Someone posted previously about the use of “artificial aids” and I mentioned that they were refinements, but they were the tools of an artist. I believe I have graduated from the finger painting stage to the Crayola crayon stage. That does not mean I should be picking up a rapidograph or expensive oils and screwing everything up. This goes for the schoolmaster issue as well. I have no more business getting on an FEI level horse, even a tolerant one, unless it’s a quickie for a photo op.

I love my trainer. A few lessons back, she wanted more forward movement. And her comment was, “You are not asking for this because it is time to do hard work. You are asking for this because it is a better way for him to move, one that will strengthen him and lessen the liklihood of injury.”

And that’s how I try and ride. Thinking, “How do I make this better for my horse?” And the great thing is, it makes it better for me, too.

[Bogey2]

Sherie, visit your thread on “misunderstood”. You are coming on strong badmouthing your barnmates. Are you sure they misunderstood? Read some of the responses, you asked for them.

[siegi_b]

To Brady’s Mom - In my mind, belittling the current system in order to get changes started usually doesn’t get results. Changes that are worth instituting should be able to stand on their own merit.

RK is a term that has many definitions judging from the numerous discussions on this BB alone. I don’t think anybody has been able to quantify what constitutes an RK method that everybody agrees with, therefore, we’re left with the long/deep description and as such, a concept that has been around for ages. What doesn’t help is that this method has most recently been associated with a rider that consistently wins the BIG competitions, so there has been lots of exposure and press. Add a few fanatics that will try to incite the unsuspecting public with websites showing horses with their mouths wide open and close to their chests, and you have a perfect example of what today’s internet/media can “accomplish” in very little time.

It now looks like the big RK debate is about to run its course and discussions are not nearly as prolific or heated anymore. Give it another six months and a lot of the more excitable folks will have found another cause to dissect via the internet.

Given the above, my question to you is as follows… do you want to effect change in the way today’s dressage horses are trained and subsequently judged, OR is this merely another exercise in RK bashing?

Best,

Siegi

[mygenie]

[QUOTE=sherie;2144393]
…aschew…[/QUOTE]

Bless you…

I am sorry, I just had to do this…

[siegi_b]

my genie - I just about fell out of my chair…!!! You’re too funny!

Thanks, I needed that.