Colic-like symptoms, but pretty sure it's not colic?

[Claddagh]

[QUOTE=jessandsunny;7592694]
…My aunt lives where we are keeping him and my other gelding, so she was coming outside and feeding him apples, carrots, and other treats. We didn’t know she was feeding him, so we were giving him apples too. After the first day of sickness, he stopped getting apples. Yesterday morning, he had a quarter of an apple cut up, and that afternoon, he had the symptoms again. …[/QUOTE]

I would bet that it’s the apples. I have one who did the exact same thing when he ate apples - even just a quarter of an apple. Minor colic symptoms but nothing major - just not right.

Needless to say he hasn’t had a bite of apple for years now - and has never had so much as even a little upset stomach. In my horse’s case it was definitely, without a doubt, the apples.

I would suspect your horse is the same. Easy way to test the theory - just don’t ever give him even one bite of an apple. Hopefully that’s all it is and your problem will be solved.

However, I’m sure you know that if the symptoms return anyway, you should have your vet.

[Chief2]

Apples, carrots, grass, and sweet feed all equal sugar, which equals gas. One of the signs of an allergy to excess sugar is explosive flatulence when sugar is introduced into the diet. No apples, no carrots, and get as much of the sugar out of the diet as possible and you will most likely see relief. If you decide to come off of sweet feed, aim for a grain that is low in non-structural carbohydrates (NSC). Percentages in the single or extremely low double digits would be preferred.

Horses who need to be wormed also end up with a big gas gut, so some horses are kept on daily wormer for this reason. When I took my horses off of dw, within days one of them immediately became a huge gas machine. I wasn’t too happy with that result. In his case, a squirt of Ration Plus (prebiotic) daily on his food went some ways to take care of the problem. Still, he was better on dw.

BTW, colic simply means pain, so if you’ve got gas and pain, you’ve got colic.

[lilitiger2]

Hey Chief2, interesting and thanks!
My old guy, who will be wormed Monday, has gas like…my husband (no gallbladder) after eating dairy! Really, will fart for 30-40 seconds! TONS of gas!

He hates carrots, apples, etc. WILL NOT eat any kind of mash with soaked cubes, molasses, appleanything. Just no.

Has been on soaked hay (as long as he is passing poop) and senior feed (which I bet does have high sugar, have not checked).

He flags his tail constantly. Postures to poop but does not. Then, FINALLY will deliver a small pile (and a nice pile, not rock hard, nice sheen on the turds). Ate plenty yesterday, looked good, but only one poop all night and nothing until about 10:30 this am (small pile)

He is HUNGRY (and really needs to put on weight). I am told to hold back on soaked hay which he loves. Today I was told he could eat green grass but I woried about that - I did think that might cause problems but hand grazed him in the heavily grazed horse pasture, so grass very short, for about 15 minutes. No temp, HR fine.

He has been tubed (and seemed MUCH brighter after that). And walked for exercise.

Definitely want to get the worming done

had been on strongid C but vet recommended discontinuing…so now back to old schedule

Very interesting thread (and relevant for me!)

[Equibrit]

@sascha;7595597

Just because a horse isn’t necessarily going to die from gas, doesn’t mean gas episodes should be ignored. In fact, I think it’s cruel, ignorant, and stupid to ignore it.

Please point out the part where ignoring gas episodes was suggested. To opine that the horse has ulcers is a little extreme.

[jessandsunny]

Update: Had another episode yesterday. It was time to call the vet. She came out, did a rectal exam, tubed with fluids, and gave some banamine. We are pretty sure it is ulcers. He is now on an alfalfa cube tea every six hours. Tonight he should get some hay. His feed is being changed to Purina Strategy Healthy Edge, which is like the TC complete. We wanted Triple Crown, but our closest provider is over two hours away. He is doing much better. We’ve started him on the UlcerGard paste too.

[SuckerForHorses]

Glad you have a plan.

Curious though, if the vet thinks its ulcers, why is hay being withheld until tonight? [That’s how I read your post anyways, that he is getting hay tea until tonight, when you will introduce hay back to him?]

[Calamber]

Get him away from the bullying horse for heaven’s sake.

[jessandsunny]

[QUOTE=Calamber;7597282]
Get him away from the bullying horse for heaven’s sake.[/QUOTE]

He is. We seperated them on Sunday. Sorry, forgot to add in my update.

[jessandsunny]

He got a quart of cubes this morning (that were soaked) with the tea, but yes, he won’t get any coastal hay until tonight.

[WildandWickedWarmblo]

No coastal! Give him timothy or t&a. The stemmier the better. And soak it for an hour or two to get rid of sugars and starches. If you cannot find timothy or t&a, at least get the russell since it is stemmier than coastal bermuda.

If you can buy alfalfa hay, get it and soak it.

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=jessandsunny;7597451]
He got a quart of cubes this morning (that were soaked) with the tea, but yes, he won’t get any coastal hay until tonight.[/QUOTE]

But the question is WHY are you waiting to give him hay? if he has ulcers, forage in the gut is the best thing for him.

[sascha]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;7597179]
Please point out the part where ignoring gas episodes was suggested. To opine that the horse has ulcers is a little extreme.[/QUOTE]

This was funny on its own. Followed by the OP’s post immediately below? Hilarious.

FWIW, the post where you said something like, meh, it’s just gas, some horses just get gas. That was the post in question. Horses don’t just get gas serious enough to appear colicky without something being NQR with their system, their feed, or both.

Also, fwiw ($0) I don’t think anyone here is offering fool proof diagnostics. We all share information we have on similar cases that we personally have dealt with in an effort to foreshorten the diagnostic anguish that we all can put ourselves through. I myself am way happier knowing all the possibilities and potential management practices than to worry myself silly wondering if there’s even a way to diagnose a horse with certain symptoms.

[FindersKeepers]

[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;7597636]
But the question is WHY are you waiting to give him hay? if he has ulcers, forage in the gut is the best thing for him.[/QUOTE]

She likely is following re-feeding instructions from her veterinarian. She said he is getting soaked cubes and tea every 4 hours, so his gut certainly isn’t empty, and it’s a slow 24 hour re-feed. That is not out of the ordinary when treated for a colic. Give the gut small, frequent meals to allow it to slowly get back on track.

[Chief2]

Lilitiger2, grass is a diuretic, and also helps to soften the manure. If he’s going to be going back out onto the grass, a daily exposure to it via hand grazing is a good thing.

I would ask the vet about going with Ration Plus in the diet. It is gentle, does a good job on lowering the gas, and is a tasty addition. You can squirt it on the feed or directly onto the hay. My gas bag does much better when he is on it. It’s either that, or go back onto the DW. Without it, oh, my! :eek: Also, during the spring when the grass is up, I switch said Gas Bag to a low NSC feed. Between that and the grass, his weight stays good. In the wnter he goes back to a low NSC senior feed. You could always add in unsweetened beet pulp or rice bran, oil, etc for more calories.

ETA: I have a horse who, when on a dry diet (feed/hay/no grass) passes dry, hard manure. I put a few glugs of canola oil into his feed daily during the winter to help him out. It helps to soften the manure and makes it easier for him to pass it. Check your senior feed. There may be molasses in it. More cause for gas.

[lilitiger2]

[QUOTE=Chief2;7599011]
Lilitiger2, grass is a diuretic, and also helps to soften the manure. If he’s going to be going back out onto the grass, a daily exposure to it via hand grazing is a good thing.

I would ask the vet about going with Ration Plus in the diet. It is gentle, does a good job on lowering the gas, and is a tasty addition. You can squirt it on the feed or directly onto the hay. My gas bag does much better when he is on it. It’s either that, or go back onto the DW. Without it, oh, my! :eek: Also, during the spring when the grass is up, I switch said Gas Bag to a low NSC feed. Between that and the grass, his weight stays good. In the wnter he goes back to a low NSC senior feed. You could always add in unsweetened beet pulp or rice bran, oil, etc for more calories.

ETA: I have a horse who, when on a dry diet (feed/hay/no grass) passes dry, hard manure. I put a few glugs of canola oil into his feed daily during the winter to help him out. It helps to soften the manure and makes it easier for him to pass it. Check your senior feed. There may be molasses in it. More cause for gas. :([/QUOTE]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! He really enjoys the handgrazing (and I can keep an eye on his output). So, today, with about 2 hours grazing, was a very good day. Tomorrow I thought I’d try him for a very short time on deeper field grass.

I am sure you are right about the molasses in Senior Feed. Wish I could find Triple Crown. so far though, this is the one damn thing he will actually eat (besides hay). I figured it was high in sugar adding to gas problems AND I think he has Cushings (pulling blood monday)!

He does eat soaked hay, which he loves, but I think would rather him eat grass. But he gets the hay at night.

Will be asking about ration plus.

He is one who has not been on DW (with me). I don’t have any real objections to it other that a past vet thought it contributed to another horses’s colic. So I DC’d. But I might ask about that again.

Thanks again for the great information.

Very much appreciated!!

[Chief2]

I took Gas Bag off of Triple Crown Senior once he went out to grass. It is loaded with molasses. Okay, good luck with your horse!

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=Chief2;7600316]
I took Gas Bag off of Triple Crown Senior once he went out to grass. It is loaded with molasses. Okay, good luck with your horse! :)[/QUOTE]

If TC Senior was “loaded with molasses” the NSC value would be much higher than the 11% that it is.

[Chief2]

There are no corn, oats or barley in TC Senior. Those range from 40 percent NSC to 70 percent. TC Senior is mostly beet pulp and molasses, hence the low rating. Someone on the board here uses a strainer and rinses the meal ration of it under a stream of running water until the molasses is all rinsed off, and then feeds it to her horse. Once the grass comes in I have to take the gassy horse off of TCSr or he gets a heavy gas output. He goes onto a low carb grain that is 8 percent NSC.