Color/Genetic testing: Texas A&M or UC Davis?

[JB]

@eightpondfarm

nd1/nd2 is so confusing.

D is Dun. All horses originated as bay dun, that is the default species color. Everything else is literaly a mutation. Plain bay - mutation. Black - mutation, and so on.

The allele that Dun is on also mutated to nd1 and nd2

nd2 is “I ain’t got nuttin’ to do with Dun, period” so that Bay Dun turned into plain bay.

nd1 is a halfway measure. It may dilute the coat a LITTLE, doesn’t have to, but if it does, not nearly to the degree that D does. But it interferes with pigment distribution in the hair shaft, which is part of what lends the hairs to fading. Double down on that - nd1/nd1 - and you get a horse more likely to be “he looks bay but something’s off” and likely fades fairly significantly"

Bay is used there as example - nd1 (and D) can exist on all colors.

nd1 also often puts on some Dun factors like a dorsal stripe (so that plain bay with a strong stripe down his spine is likely nd1), maybe some face masking, ear tips, leg barring, etc. Not usually strong, not a requirement, but that “sooty bay” with the markings on his face and shoulders, likely nd1

@eightpondfarm

if i get the mane hairs from both sire and dam and send them to UC Davis, and get that combination panel (https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/panel/full-coat-color-pattern-panel )
will I be able to tell if there is a possibility of the foal being a palomino/cremello/buckskin/perlino?

exactly BUT, you don’t need that full panel. Neither are gray, the mare doesn’t have pearl or she’d look like a cremello, and single pearl doesn’t show up on horses do it doesn’t matter if the sire has pearl or not, neither are tobiano, HIGHLY doubtful either, let alone both, are Frame and it’s too late now anyway even if they both are, neither are Silver or Champagne. Neither are LP (leopard), which means it doesn’t matter if either carry PATN1 because without LP, PATN can’t express.

You want Red factor, Cream, and Agouti. That will tell you what colors are possible

You CAN do Sabino, Splash White, and Dominant White, but knowing those are there doesn’t tell you how much white the foal might have.

@eightpondfarm

i suppose there is no test to tell how much curly is in the curly mare is there? And that would be a breed test not a coat color test?

I’m actually not entire positive whether there’s a public Curly test or not. I know it was being worked on, but don’t know its status.

@eightpondfarm

And JB…i vote for #3 as being the black, and #1 being smoky black. Foal is black too…

There are 4 horses

@jvanrens

nd2 is no dilution, but some primitive markings, often the most noticeable being the dorsal stripe. nd1 is no dilution and no primitive markings.

other way around
nd2 is nothing to do with Dun
nd1 may have some primitive markings (or not), may have a slight coat dilution (so that it looks just…off), and increases fading

[jvanrens]

@JB

other way around
nd2 is nothing to do with Dun
nd1 may have some primitive markings (or not), may have a slight coat dilution (so that it looks just…off), and increases fading

Thanks for catching that! Will teach me to post while playing fetch with my Border Collie!

[JB]

hahaha!

[eightpondfarm]

His sire is gray. i THINK he was all black before fading away. I’ve a photo of him when Quigley was foaled and another a few years prior…where he looks KINDA? black
in the photo id “MLS” means: Most Likely Sire

[JB]

@eightpondfarm

His sire is gray.

But he’s not, so no gray test is needed. But unless there are foal to maybe 1-2yo pictures of his gray sire, you don’t have any insight into his color. Even in his darker younger photo there’s no way to know his base color, the gray process is too far in

That said, that photo shows a chestnut dam, which means whether he’s black or bay or smoky black, he’s Ee, and that means there’s a chance of palomino (which requires ee as a base)

Ok, I’ll provide the answers to the 4 pictures:

#1 and #2 are black.
#3 and #4 are smoky black
https://colorgenetics.info/equine/gallery

This proves you cannot visually distinquish black from smoky black

[Texarkana]

@alpine1

Oldenburg is not something Texas A&M tests for, so it couldn’t have been them (and I think they are the best).

Ah. It very well could have been Selle Francais or Trakahner and I’m misremembering (or was mistold, since it wasn’t my report).

But…

Is it really helpful when your horse comes back something like Akhal Teke, Lipizzaner, Selle Francais… but he is actually a registered
Anglo arab? If you know the parentage you can work backwards and justify the results. But on a horse of unknown breeding, that narrows down almost nothing.

[openspace]

If you are on a timeline, I used Animal Genetics for color and genetic disorder testing on two horses and was happy with the results. It was slightly cheaper and faster turnaround time than the college labs (I received results about 4-6 days after mailing samples). I personally wouldn’t bother with breed testing for reasons above. I have heard good things about both Texas A&M and UC Davis, and for me it was mostly a timeframe issue (and I was able to catch a sale at AM).

For the Curly genes on the mare, Etalon offers curly gene testing (listed as $59 on their site). I’ve heard mixed reviews about Etalon on color and disorder testing (have never personally used them so no personal experiences), but they are one of the only labs that offers designation of the specific curly genes (KRT25 or SP6, there are others but these are the only ones currently able to be tested to my layperson knowledge - and it may not matter to you which specific gene [or genes] she has).

[jvanrens]

@openspace

For the Curly genes on the mare, Etalon offers curly gene testing (listed as $59 on their site). I’ve heard mixed reviews about Etalon on color and disorder testing (have never personally used them so no personal experiences), but they are one of the only labs that offers designation of the specific curly genes (KRT25 or SP6, there are others but these are the only ones currently able to be tested to my layperson knowledge - and it may not matter to you which specific gene [or genes] she has).

One of the equine colour groups I’m a member of on Facebook, tracks Etalon errors. They’ve made errors on genetic and colour testing, including HYPP, Frame (LWO) and tobiano. I’d go elsewhere.

[JB]

@alpine1

Do you know someone with an Anglo-Arab who got a report without Arab and TB in the results? That would surprise me because they say a registered horse with known parentage will almost always return exact results.

Registration or being a “pure” breed has nothing to do with the issues of breed testing. There can be no exact results, because horse breeds have no exact identifying markers

[eightpondfarm]

@jvanrens

Frame (LWO

again, i’m TOTALLY ignorant about color genetics…
Could this mustang sire carry overo without expressing?

i ask because there are three mustang mares who were exposed to him. One i SAW being bred—and she was given an abortion shot… the other two, well they were only with him that one day and one night. But, one of them is an overo… a curly overo. So if he could carry the overo gene then i better think about getting a pregnancy test on her… and a color test for LWO

[jvanrens]

Frame often does not express, so a solid horse can be frame without any white markings. It’s a good idea to test for. I believe it often shows more when there is another white pattern to boost it.

[eightpondfarm]

uhO!!!
I’ll send his hairs in … If he carries then i’ll start worrying!

I THINK i can steady her in a halter long enough for the vet to draw blood for a pregnancy test.

It’s too late to give her an abortion shot.

[JB]

@eightpondfarm

Could this mustang sire carry overo without expressing?

Yes, there are lots of solid horses carrying LWO

It doesn’t matter at this point because she’s already pregnant.

@eightpondfarm

i better think about getting a pregnancy test on her

I thought it was a given she’s pregnant?

Let’s back up a bit - what makes you feel she’s pregnant, and how long ago would this have happened?

@eightpondfarm

I’ll send his hairs in … If he carries then i’ll start worrying!

she would need to be tested too, if you’re truly concerned about a Lethal foal. It takes 2 for that

[ShenanAnna]

So the palomino is for sure pregnant and there’s another possibly pregnant? Or two more possibles?

[eightpondfarm]

ok…That palomino mare, it IS a given that she’s pregnant. Long story follows:

i adopted four geldings from BLM. Rounded up from Sand Wash Basin HMA in Colorado. One of them was easily gentled. I brushed him all over, handled him all over, taught him how to wear a halter and lead. I picked up his feet in prep for the farrier and taught him to load. He was SO TAME i thought i might outta turn him out with the domestic herd. They come in every day, come when called, are very very manageable. And not harsh to eachother. I thought it would be a good fit. So… i wanted to introduce him to the lead mare, that palomino… my dressage horse. Figuring that once he passed her inspection, and she was fine with him…intro to the heard would be easier on him. Well…i put her in a private pen and they seemed ok. Next morning, from the house i heard a lot of screaming… i got down there, neither one had damaged the other and moved her out. Deciding that i didn’t want to risk broken bones! and that since he was born and brought up on the range maybe he belonged with the rest of the ruffian mustangs instead of the domestics.

So i continued working with him more…because the mustang herd doesn’t hang out close to home and i wanted to get good good GOOD training in on him before turning him out. I brushed him, handled him more, we did trailer…taught him about fly spray etc. One day i was moving my hands around him and between his legs, back behind his sheath i felt a mound. Not a big hump, just a mound that fit into the palm of my hand. I got down in there and looked, but the lump was just barely discernable. I was sincerely afraid he had a hernia from gelding… But thought…better just go check on his paperwork first. I did and BLM had all his shots, deworming and also a castration date of 4.12.2022, signed by their vet. So he had been gelded a year prior… I was still worrying about hernia but when i rechecked a day or two later…no lump. It was totally flat down there.

So now it’s time to get him ready to put in with the Mustangs. I brought in the mares.

----Why you ask? Well, because whenever i’ve brought home a new mustang or two, and turn them out into the herd (after taming, deworming etc) it’s the mares who …one at a time, come forward and meet then return to the herd. Then another one will come check out the newbies. It’s really a very interesting social phenomenon to observe!

Anyhow, because i adore Quigley, and he’s so young and so sweet, i wanted to manage things a bit more, so i had the mares all come into his area. (a fortuitous decision it turns out!) All fine, no fireworks, i fed a LOT LOT LOT of alfalfa and left them for the night. Next morning i got down there, still no problem, and i fed… As i was feeding sheep nearby i heard squealing and turned to see Quigley trying to mount one of the mares, Tovah, and then…he penetrated her! Now, Tovah is a notorious slut, and i’ve seen her pester one of the mustang geldings into ‘breeding’ her (not really, but he does penetrate even though is is gelded. for SURE gelded). I didn’t think tooo awfully much of it because i know her. Later on that evening he was still atop her …like allll the time! and i got close enough to see balls! Smallish tight tidy testicles. Now…i have cattle and sheep, and bulls and rams both have huge pendulous testicles… I took a photo of his nether region and stopped by the vet’s the next morning asked my vet: “Is this them?” and he said: “sure looks like it”. We immediately scheduled a castration and an abortion shot for Tovah (the slutty one) So went home and moved the three mares out!!! And he went nuts!!! Like climbing the six foot panels nuts…Like dancing on his hind legs nuts!!! So, since Tovah was already done and going to be given a shot, i brought her back in to keep him company. And he quieted down.

Meanwhile i contacted BLM, who said that i was the 3rd person who adopted a ‘gelding’ that was in fact intact!!! They said they’d pay for all expenses and did. I never even saw the vet bill, BLM paid him directly.
(again Quigley’s veterinary records that came with him from BLM had a SIGNED!!! veterinarian certification of castration~! which obviously did not happen)

So…alll’s good right? Quigley is gelded, Tovah is aborted. I’m still training Quigley and he’s soooo good. Life is back to normal. But, a few friends suggested that he could have bred any or all of those mustang mares in those…36? hours. And then wondered: ?even without testicles showing, or me noticing that they’d dropped… could he have bred Brenna that day and night a few weeks ago?? And thought i’d better test. Had to wait til her 60 day mark, and vet came and pulled blood sample. Sure enough…preggers. A MAJOR COMPLICATION!!! a) she’s in training and is very very good. and…here’s the biggie: She’s adopted from a rescue org. I signed a contract that i wouldn’t breed her!

anyway…point being Palomino IS pregnant. Chance of two other mustang mares being pregnant in addition.

[Paint_Party]

Oh dear. Your band of mares must’ve been cycling at about the same time. Lucky you.

Well, this is not your fault. And it makes me have all kinds of questions about the BLM castration procedure. Wonder if it was the same vet who performed these phantom castrations.

[ShenanAnna]

Yikes! Is all I can say. You seem to really try and are very observant, careful, and hands-on.

From what you’ve told (and shown!) us about Quigley, those are pretty darned good genes to pass on.

[eightpondfarm]

What i think is that these three were all young stallions and they just hadn’t dropped yet. Quigley would have only been a long yearling when ‘gelded’… And when he came here, at a little over two years old, he hadn’t dropped yet. I think probably all three of them retained and were passed on through to be put aside to see if they dropped and could be easily castrated OR surgically castrated. And they fell through the cracks. One of the other non-castrated ‘geldings’ is owned by someone i’ve reached out to…her ‘gelding’ was monorchid. Still is. She has the horse farm and other studs so she is equipped to handle him intact. She is waiting for him to drop the retained testicle, but if he doesn’t she’ll have to do the invasive surgery. BLM will have a rather hefty expense…and then, there’s always the fear of something going asunder. She’s pretty worried about him.

[eightpondfarm]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, that’s nice.

Quigley is a sweet and amenable and curious and funny horse. He lives on the Light Side of life.

[Maythehorsebewithme]

@eightpondfarm

I took a photo of his nether region and next morning asked my vet: “Is this them ?” and he said: “sure looks like it”.

Sorry, I feel for your situation, but this cracked me up.

I also wonder if there is a vet somewhere charging BLM for work not done.