Same, and I always say, my client pays me, your client pays you. I then get suspicious. What is the horse really worth? If I’m interested we get a Ppe and make an offer. It seems too many these days get offended if you make an offer. Why? We haggle cars, houses, boats, trailers etc. It’s business, can’t hurt to ask.
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I do this and I have no money.
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When we were buying (don’t know about selling, because everything we ever get stays with us forever…)
There was a 10% comission on the horse (rolled into the price). Buying & selling trainer split it. (so 5% each). One of our trainers personal goals though was to try & keep showing affordable for some of these kids.
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[I remember once when a friend of our family called about her recently deceased son’s childrens jumper. She wanted my younger brother to have it in her son’s memory and gave us her reasonable price. We went to go buy it at the barn and the trainer said no, the price was __ (far higher). Before we could get out friend on the phone (pre mobile), the trainer had pressured a parent in the barn to buy the horse and sign the contract right then. Done and horse lost. To add insult, the trainer wrote a check out to our friend for a fraction of her real sale price.]
That’s terrible. How awful for your friend and your family.
I didn’t have time to read through all the comments, but the commission rates charged in the horse industry are very comparable to those charged by sports agents or art dealers. Selling a horse is not like selling a house.
Sports and art agents may be comparable examples, but not very flattering comparisons considering the reputation those fields have for being exploitative and shady.
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Thats why the term “horse trader” defines suspect dealings in anything from used car sales to the latest version- cryptocurrency scams.
Up to seller/owner and buyer to ask questions and verify as opposed to swallowing any BS fed to them.
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That kind of thing might be breach of fiduciary duty to trainer’s client (the friend) and fraud. Not exactly the same as being up front about commission rates.
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The OPs issue is “isn’t 15% on both sides of a sale crazy?” I agree with her that it is, where else does someone get 15% of a sale? And it doesn’t matter if its 200k or 75k the equation is the same, you can’t sell a 75k horse to buy a 75k horse because you are paying 15% on either side. There are some big trainers who have a sliding scale that the % goes down as the value goes up, that seems fair. Hope Glynn is pretty open she charges 10% on horses over 6 figures. But the bottom line is so long as people are willing to pay the 15%, it will get charged.
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Why is (disclosed) commission on both sides “ crazy”?
Buyers trainer/agent has buyers needs in mind and often spends months networking with other trainers, usually at every show they haul to, trying to locate suitable contacts and be sure trainers entire network is aware s/hes looking.
Sellers trainer/agent does the same thing from sellers side with sellers needs in mind. Both sides schedule presentations, test rides and trials, again often at circuit shows and handle transportation arrangements in multi state or even country transactions. They make a much broader market and deeper buyer pool available to each side.
Why would each trainer/agent not merit a commission from their client? Disclosed in advance, paid directly by each to their own trainer/ agent NOT rolled into the price of course. Now, IMO, rolling it into the price and trainer(s) still tacking on top of the price without disclosure IS crazy.
Never be afraid not to swallow what they are trying to feed you. TALK, negotiate, get it in writing and be honest about your budget.
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The agreed upon commission is not crazy, at least to me.
What’s crazy is the “hard feelings” guilt trip approach if the horse owner decides to sell on their own without involving the trainer.
Either offer a service worth the commission amount, or shut up. And understand that even if you’re worth the commission amount, the horse owner - the one with the ACTUAL risk of a bad vetting, etc. - is entitled to do what they like with their property without being guilted into paying the trainer 15% (or whatever the % the trainer charges is).
If the services offered are worth the 15%, people will gladly pony up. No guilt trip necessary.
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This discussion about commissions being charged on both sides of a sale makes me think of the new(ish) and growing trend of auction houses (selling things like antiques, artwork, etc.) charging crazy “buyer’s premiums” on top of the winning bid.
I use LiveAuctioneers a lot to find and bid on items I collect, and these premiums are occasionally as low as 15%, but more often are in the 20–30% range. But they’re always clearly posted.
The auction house is already getting a hefty percentage of the items’ sale prices from the seller for hosting the auction, so to me the buyer’s premium screams of double-dipping. And it’s not payment for arranging shipping, if the auction house offers this. They charge a separate shipping fee on top of the actual shipping cost for packaging the items (as they should).
I try to vote with my feet and not bid in auctions where they have high buyer’s premiums, but what I collect is hard enough to find that many times I just have to swallow my principles and pay it. But I know in advance that if I want the item badly enough, I’ll have to pay these extra fees. Same with buying horses.
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The 15% on both sides is crazy, that’s my point, especially when its the same trainer on both sides.
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Do you find high level trainers giving sliding scales or deals on dual sided transactions?
On the West Coast (USA and Canada), I have gotten feedback from BNT’s that they view this, and is legally supportable, as two separate transactions. Selling Eq horse is an entirely different transaction and skill set than buying 1.50m show jumper.
The law is on the side of commission for each individual transaction if adequately disclosed. I suppose a trainer could in theory lower the rate if there is a subsequent “guaranteed” transaction, but we all know how business can go…
Say junior doesn’t want to ride anymore in the 3 months it takes to acquire show jumper after sale of Eq horse (if I had a dollar for every junior that stopped riding permanently in their 18th year… or once they decided they wanted to go to college in NYC or decided to play D1 volleyball instead). If trainer lowered commission for the first sale transaction and the “dual side” of subsequent purchase never happens… that’s poor for business & the trainer is NEVER guaranteed a future behavior of a client. Pretty sure a contract to buy a future sport pet animal is unenforceable.
Horse folks are peculiar when it comes to business - and often have the freedom to do whatever the market allows…
I found some trainers at all levels using the sliding commission scale. Since I stopped handling my own buy/sell and used trainer/agent, always dealt with my side of the transaction and wrote a separate check to my trainer/agent. No idea what went on between the other party and their trainer/agent.
Look, we all know there is much opportunity for fraud and plenty of first hand experience with it. BUT unless you sit in on the negotiations and transaction and see the check or EFT? You are usually relying on third hand information, guesses and conjecture. Ego too, between trying to play the I paid more/sold for more then you did game or trying to play “insider” revealing “secrets” to gain stature in the barn community, you can get as big a load of BS as any trainer/agent ever shoveled.
Most horse owners prefer not to disclose their financial dealings openly and expect their trainer/agent not to share. But they cant control gossip or outright lies by others taken as fact.
The thread that started this topic was really light on any details if what they had and what they needed to decide the veracity of what trainer actually said…if thats what trainer actually said.
Guys, this is nothing.
My sister is one of the more prominent women of her generation. The galleries take 50% of all sales. ALL. Like even when she took the piece home and it’s in her storage warehouse for a while. And some friend wants to buy it… STILL 50%.
Trust me when I say we do not have it that bad off. Even if the prices are very high for the 6 figure people.
**Also worth noting any buyer of one of my horses is told at contact point one, “All commissions are paid by you. NONE will be paid by me.”
Em
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Careful - I got totally exploded on for saying $60k of transaction fees on 2 transactions of $200k is relatively negligible and “not a lot of money” if you’re willing to play in the quarter milli purchase price.
Husband is a hobby oil painter, but galleried (as in, he has a career outside of art) - galleries always take 30-55%.
He often sells privately (as in several pieces never are seen or known about by the gallery) for this reason, but galleries serve a purpose (publicity).
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Buyer’s premiums are not new. According to Wikipedia, buyer’s premiums date back to Roman times. “The modern buyer’s premium was introduced at 10% by Christie’s and Sotheby’s in London in September 1975.” This is in addition to the commission charged to the seller. High end car auctions have had a buyers premium as long as I can remember.
She has a fleet of attorneys, represented herself for a stint, where she was more profitable after being screwed by one gallery, and now has 3-4 galleries that she works with. Not all in the USA.
Em
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But that trainer was compensated for those hours at the time of service. Also, the realtor who hs to jump through far more legal and licensing hoops to even engage in business and who is often potentially on the hook for far more legal issues as the result of a transaction is often paid about 3% in the end. As a state licensee when they are acting as fiduciary there are many ways in which they can jeopardize their license. They trainer who advises a client to spend $200k to buy a wholly unsuitable “sport pet” (very apt term, BTW) knowing that the client will incur thousands of dollars in training expenses (payable to same trainer) to make horse suitable is acting in their own interest, not that of the client.
To return to the realtor, if they advised a client to buy a property knowing that their was water damage, then subsequently advised them to use their husband’s water damage recovery firm to repair the house they would (rightfully) be sued.
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